AI and the Pastor’s Heart: Can Technology Deepen Ministry?

00:02 - Speaker 1 So the question is can AI actually help pastors prepare better sermons, like, is it ethical to use ChatGPT in your weekly message, and what does AI mean for things like discipleship or leadership or even the actual soul of the church? So today we're tackling these big questions, these big issues, and I'm really excited to do it with a good friend, a great man. He's a pastor, author, ceo of a data company. So join us, we're really excited about this one. Hey, all right. Hey, all right. We are back. 00:46 Johnny Levy, my friend, ceo of a research and data company, pastor, author, a well-versed man in so many areas. He's well capable of diving into the topic we have today, which is a big one AI and the church. Ai is currently impacting every facet of life, everybody. Actually, whether you know it or not, you are dealing with it. So from marketing to sales, to emails, to TV shows, everywhere. So we're going to dive in a little bit today and just have a discussion here on the Passing the Pulpit podcast, specifically about AI and ministry and kind of what that will look like. So, before we get rolling too far ahead of myself here, I want to take a moment. Johnny, could you maybe share about yourself the high points, the pertinent points. Share about yourself, um the, the high points, the pertinent points, um, who are you and uh, and you know why. Why would someone listening? 01:54 - Speaker 2 uh, be interested in hearing you and I talk about AI, all right? Well, that that's easy enough Cause, cause we're just fun. We're very fun, guys. That's. That's the reason Cause we're going to. It's going to give you a good little feeling to listen to us talk. 02:06 Um so so my name is Johnny Levy and, uh and I, I guess the thing I would, I would love, the thing I would have you know about me, probably more than anything, is my, my calling and my passion. Um has to do with identity, um, and so I, my life's work, is to help people understand what I call their superpower. You could call it their spiritual gifts, but really I want to teach people to walk in alignment with their design as an act of worship in itself. Right, like to be who God created you to be is actually an act of worship. I don't think I don't think most people think that way, but that's been a huge process for me. So you know, I don't come to this conversation as an expert in the mechanics of how AI works. I do come with my 10,000 hours of understanding humans and what it is to be human, and that is the perspective from which I would proceed. 03:00 - Speaker 1 And in your, in your specific, you know your, your work, your secular work, if you want to call it that, let's say but data and research, how have you already seen AI kind of pushing in and butting in, and what's been your experience so far? 03:25 - Speaker 2 when AI came, I, I, I my personal story with AI. I remember the first time that it really dawned on me, Right? So, you know, I, I have a stepson who's also one of my best friends, you know, and Isaiah shout out to Isaiah, who I love, I love dearly and deeply. And you know, the younger generation is a lot more open to new technologies than the older generation is Right. And so he, uh, he showed me a story that AI was helping him write. He's a writer and an artist and he showed me the story and I watched it happening. I watched him type in prompts, you know, or had typed in prompts, and then stories coming out and it's the period he's talking about is like early, like you know, feudal Japan, you know mythological story and the, the period details are just really good. And I'm watching this happen and I'm like if AI can do this in 10 seconds and spit out a whole entire scene, that's pretty good. 04:22 What am I doing as a writer? Like, what does that mean for me as a writer? I had an existential problem immediately, like I had it, like I actually had to go to prayer, like I had to, like I had a problem because I I'm a creative person and my, my writing and my creation is important to me and it's a part of my identity. And it felt like a part of my identity. It felt like the order of man being at the top of the evolutionary order or whatever. I felt like I just got slapped down, like get back in your place. 04:53 And so, yes, absolutely so. My first experiences were that and I got over it and began to be like, okay, there's a place for this, and so how is it affecting my job, began to be like, okay, there's a place for this, and so how is it affecting my job? Certainly, like so many of the um, the, the, the, the repetitive tier work that can be templatized, work that can be repeated, work that can be, that basically is the execution of a prompt is going away, right Like it's. You can replace it, and so we're already doing some of that replacement. I mean, there's, there's segments of our business where you know, we've even leveraged outsourced labor in the past that might not be outsourced labor in the future because of tools that we're building internally that render that unnecessary. 05:40 So that you know it's we have outsourced. Know the the industrial industrial revolution, I think they say, was outsourcing physical labor, and you know, through robotics and mechanisms, and you know now we've outsourced or we're outsourcing mental labor and there's a lot that's just mental labor, yeah, right now. So so anyway, that I don't know. I hope I, I hope I answered your question, that's a lot, but it's also a big thing to try to talk about. 06:10 - Speaker 1 I think, yeah, I appreciate the way you're talking about it, cause I think if people were honest, a lot of people would say similar things to what you just said. You know 15 areas of what's impacted me, so what are the parallels that you see with the church then? Um, so you're saying outsourced, thinking outsourced some of the labor, like just high level. You're in a church where would you imagine ai could be, could be butting in? 06:41 - Speaker 2 yeah, yeah. Well, first let me say I'm not currently pastoring a church, right? So, like I, I have a former pastor, although pastor in heart, and I don't think you can, I can never not be a pastor right. 06:52 But, um, I will say that the promise of ai is that it's going to allow you to to outsource repetitive tasks, templatizable tasks, tasks that don't really require higher level reasoning and higher level well, even mid-level, like some level of reasoning but actual creativity and context, right, relational and cultural context, things that don't need that, so that you can focus on those higher level things more and more, and more and more and more right. And so, and I do think you know, I don't have an ethical problem, a fundamental ethical problem with that right, with that. But you know, once we start talking about, we're talking about the church and we're talking about a place in which God has placed people and implanted them and endowed them with gifts, and the exercise of those gifts is part of the organic mechanism of the church. And so where it can become a problem is if we're going to take some of those spiritual gifts that God gave the church for its edification and replace them with a robot, because now you've done two things You've robbed the church of the gift of that person, um, and you've robbed the person of the gift of that person, um, and you've robbed the person of the chance to exercise the gift, right, um and so so. 08:32 Now, where does that line happen? I don't know, right, like I use AI frequently and I and I have my own rules of what I will allow. Like I'm not going to let AI write poetry for me, right, that's offensive. To be honest, it's offensive. Poetry is the expression of my deeper, deepest, inmost being. Why would I let a robot write my poetry? You know what I'm saying? Like now some people might say well, john, you go. I don't know. That's a, that's a line for me. 09:02 - Speaker 1 That's a line you have like a you call it like rules of engagements with this specific tool. 09:07 - Speaker 2 So yeah, yes, yes. So, but what do I use it for? Like there there is a function, like I do a lot of writing right and there, and there's a lot of writing that's required of me. Um, you know, I do a lot of interviews. 09:20 I do a lot of interviews and they're they're so life-giving and beautiful and lively and full of life and full of the spirit a lot of times and all this stuff, but then when I post them on Substack, there's often an article that's more of a summary. I love using AI to help me write those summaries, because I'm not a fast writer, I'm a very slow writer and the product isn't the summary is the. Is the interview right? That's the magic. It's the video interview. So there are places where I give myself permission to do exactly that. It helps me cut 30 minutes of writing an article down to five to seven minutes of writing an article, which means I can do more interviews. You know what I mean I can do more interviews. 10:03 - Speaker 1 Um, man, I mean Sure, I could do more interviews. 10:06 - Speaker 2 Um, man, I, I'm grateful for that. It makes me feel appreciative for that, um. But you know, there I also understand. Um, we're made in the image of God, made with certain gifts. What happens when some of those gifts if I have this gift for what? What happens if some of those gifts start to be replaced? Well, obviously, I'm going to have to learn a higher use of those gifts, and that's also okay. But, as you can tell, like nobody has the playbook or the rule book at this point, the ethical guidebook is yet to be written. There you go On this topic. We're trying to write it to some degree, right, you and me we're trying to write. 10:50 - Speaker 1 Yeah we're trying to think through it and I think you started to hit on the place that I think a lot of ministry leaders are starting to question, because in my own conversations it's come up quite a bit. I've heard lay people or people outside the ministry talking about the specific use of AI for creating sermons. So so, so AI generated sermon content, like that's definitely a big issue. So you kind of started to say it when, as a poet, so uh, I, so I know, I know you, but as a poet and an author, it it wouldn't, we'd be, it'd be fair to say that words really matter to you. So the words are important, the like you said, you're not going to use ai to write poetry because you'd feel like robbing the process, it'd be short changing. 11:40 So that kind of brings up the one of the first questions I wanted to ask you about. That we could talk through. But where do you think AI tools can assist people pastors, leaders in sermon preparation, but without replacing the role of the Holy spirit or the deep work of the study and the prayer? So you know, you see what I'm saying. How do you, can you use the tools and can you also still wrestle the thing to the ground. Can you also still come out of the study with sweat dripping off your brow because you've, you've gone, gone after it. Like what do you think? 12:21 - Speaker 2 Yeah, this is a very, very hard and tender question. Um, so the first thing I will say is I'm not here to create a law. I don't know that this is an area of law, right, where I'm going to say, hey, if you do this, you're sinning against the Holy Spirit. I don't, I'm not really coming at it from that perspective. I don't want to come at it from that perspective. I think I'd rather talk about what's the goal of a sermon and what's beneficial to that goal and what's potentially not beneficial to that goal, right. 12:55 So you know the whole. A sermon is supposed to be a function of the Holy Spirit period, end of story. It is supposed to be right, like uh and and I'm not saying we all meet the standard, but it's, it is. It is God speaking to a particular group of people in a particular location in a particular time, right, and it's. And it's the Holy spirit's word, right. It says if you're, if you're going to speak, you speak as the Oracle of God. Right, you're speaking as the Oracle of God to a congregation of people that need to hear God. That is sacred, that is a sacred responsibility, right, um, and you, you, you and I both know right, we both written sermons and had to, had to, had to as you put it fight, I think you said fight it down and wrestle it down to the ground. 13:46 Like you've had to do that. Right, because often God makes you go through the word before he lets you preach the word. Right, like he works on you in order to work through you. Right. Can I get an? 13:58 - Speaker 1 amen, I'm gonna preach right now, with no AI. There you go. 14:05 - Speaker 2 So that which is beneficial to that process of grappling with God, seeking God's heart to be his mouth, yeah, thumbs up. That which is detrimental to that process, yep, thumbs down. So if I'm going to go to AI and just say, all right, ai, give me a sermon, that's actually not, I wouldn't say it's beneficial to you. Like Simon Sinek said this if anybody knows the famous philosopher, writer, simon Sinek, he talks about writing a book and he says, yes. And he says, yes, ai could have written my book for me. He said, but I changed because I wrote the book. I wrote the book and I changed and I grew as a human and I became, you know, to some degree you become the message that you're giving. 14:58 Now the danger of AI is that it interrupts or detracts from that process. Right, um, and could it? Yes, it could like, and, and. And. As a writer and as a person who's wrestled with what I'll use AI for and what I won't use it for, this is very real to me, because I actually know what it feels like to have it right, something for me, and then to feel like, ah, I think it's right, I think the output is right, but I feel like I was robbed of something. Yeah, I missed out on something. Yeah, right, yeah, um, and I think that's exactly what Simon Sinek would say. He said he says we talk about how the culture, we say that's the journey, not the destination. But AI is the thing that just gives you the destination without the journey. That's what it is. That's right. It's that cool, it's that powerful, it's that strong. It can give you the destination without the journey. But you have to decide uh, how valuable is the journey? Valuable as the journey to me. 16:00 - Speaker 1 So, and I love what you're saying and, yeah, I, I, if, if, uh, mr Sinek was with us right now, I think he'd agree with what you're saying, while he said it. 16:13 So, but so yeah, hey, have you heard this quote? He's like, yeah, I've said that I think. But, um, but you bring up a great, you bring up a great. I mean a point of, not a point of pushback. But if I'm a ministry leader and I'm listening to this, what do I do? If I'm in a church where it's just so evident that what they really want they want the destination, like what do you do if you're in that situation and it's just so clear that your team and your board and the people around you, you know they just really want a finely polished, golden nugget type sermon every single Sunday and it's kind of devoid of like no, what I want is your transformation as a pastor. I want you to wrestle it down, I want you to go through it so that God can work through you, like kind of like how you said it. So, yeah, what would you do in that situation? Or how would you? How would you handle that? 17:12 - Speaker 2 First, I want to give compassion to that person. Right, like, first of all, like that's that's. That's a tough spot to be in when you're, you know you're working in a place and you feel like there's an expectation on you and the expectation isn't you know, what is the Holy Spirit going to give us through you. The expectation is I need you to manufacture this product, right, and so that's not an AI problem. Yeah, right, that's not an AI problem. That's actually a cultural problem. Right, that's a cultural problem. 17:46 So you know what you, what you said, what we, the framing of this initial conversation was, you know, man is, is it. Is it a problem if we're letting AI replace the Holy Spirit? Yes, because nothing's supposed to replace the Holy Spirit. Also, you know, like a structure or an institution shouldn't be replacing the Holy Spirit. Care that you manufacture the product according to our instructions. 18:10 Well, okay, then I think that's a hard wrestle, so I don't have that. The reason I have compassion is because I don't have an easy answer for that person, because that person's problem is an AI, right, the problem is what your context is requiring of you and you're going to have to wrestle out if you're, if you're willing to let that replace the Holy spirit, right? So that's how I'd answer that, and also painful and, like I said, lots of grace for that person and lots of compassion for that person, because that's that's not easy, because you also want to honor authority, right, yeah, and so I'm not saying it's not easy because you also want to honor authority, right, yeah, and so I'm not saying it's an easy wrestle. 19:05 - Speaker 1 Yeah, that that scenario came to mind as we were talking about, uh, ai and just thinking about someone who could be in that position who just goes man, whatever, whatever, I've just got to churn this stuff out, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna take, take the short road, um, yeah, so so, yeah, you're right. What I think you said, what you said, I think what is really important is the structures that are in place, right, like we would all hope that the structures would be healthy, would be generous, would be Christ-like, and if they are, then then some of this, um, I think is easy to talk about and, um, you know, it can be really healthy and helpful to talk through. So, yeah, any other thoughts, specifically on um, the idea of short cutting, or um specifically in sermon prep and preparation, like if, if it were you, it could you shoot from the hip, like what would be some of your own personal rules of engagement If you were writing a sermon and you have all the AI tools? 20:11 - Speaker 2 what would you personally be thinking about? That's such a good question and it forces me to, I think, get out of the realm of the theoretical and put a little bit of skin in the game, because I know what it's like to wrestle out a sermon and I actually am probably a really good person to answer this question because I'm. I am so like, like, like, when I would do my sermons it would start with like God, what's the nugget? So I'm usually it's. We were usually preaching Um, you know, it was uh, uh, sequentially through a book. 20:40 You know, when I was preaching at the church that we both attended at Aletheia, and so I don't really necessarily have control over what I, the passage I get. Right, my job is to go to the Lord with the passage and say, what do you have for the people? Right, and so it always would start with reading and meditation and fellowship with God over the content. And, okay, what's sticking out to me and why is that sticking out to me? And you know. And then I might go look at some other people who have done sermons on that passage and say, okay, what are they saying? That fits with what I think I'm hearing and also gives me a clearer understanding of the text, so that I'm not preaching an error. And so there's, there's that process going on and at some point something would come to me, called the nugget, that I would call the nuggets. It's the it's, it's the thing that I, that God has given me, to say you love that, you like that. 21:35 - Speaker 1 That's what we're all looking for, dude. We're all just little like. We're all just little like ministerial miners out there searching through the caves, looking for the nugget to pull out and say you know? 21:44 - Speaker 2 oh, I found it, yes, yes, yes. And that nugget usually is something that's also been worked or being worked into my experience so that I can preach it from my guts, right um. And so the hardest part for me, like that part, all that whole part, is just, it's hard but it's so glorious to me, right Like I would grow from that. I would, I would, it would make me radiant in a sense, right Like I'd be with God and like like Moses. 22:18 - Speaker 1 right, my face is shining right, like, and. 22:21 - Speaker 2 but then the part where, where it's like to take the nugget and then to articulate it into a structure with bullet points and all that kind of stuff, was always so much harder for me, that was the hardest part for me, which is the part that AI does really well. 22:37 Nope, nope, right. 22:40 So I would definitely be tempted, right, if I were still preparing sermons right now. 22:47 I would definitely be tempted to bring AI into that part of the process, right. Um, now, probably, my conscience would have a problem with, like, okay, I'm just going to dictate a bunch of big picture stuff into chat, gpt, and say all the things that the Lord is telling me, and I'm gonna let it spit out for me you know my um agenda, which it could do, right, it could do this, it could do this really well. Spit out, like I could train it with how my agent write the different parts and portions and say, okay, now, populated with everything that I just said. Um, my conscious probably wouldn't let me do that, right, um, you know me, me personally, I'm not, I'm not making a, a legal statement or a moral statement, but I think my conscience would have a problem with that. Um, now, what I, what you might find me, doing, though, is going back and forth with chat, maybe putting things in there, maybe maybe saying can you give me some recommendations for how I could say this more clearly? Um, and, and it would, it would help me shortcut that part of the process that I, but I would have to do a wrestle I would have to do a wrestle to to know whether I was permitted to do that in this holy ground see what I'm saying 24:00 like like I'm not writing a textbook, I'm not writing a business email, I am working on a sermon and it's god's prerogative to have me do parts of that that feel like struggle, and so I would have to feel that I had a permission to bring a robot into that space. Even here at that kind of lower, you know, finish line, like like that small tier of the process, um, and I don't know, I haven't done that, russell, so I don't know. Yeah, I don't know where I'd be able to land there. But I think the perspective probably is correct that, like, you serve at the pleasure of the holy spirit and the holy spirit gets to tell you what tools you get to use. You know what I mean, and so there would be a little bit of a wrestle for me there, um, but I could picture myself landing in a place where I could, I could do some back and forth to help me accelerate some, some spaces inside of that realm, which is the hardest realm for me. 25:02 - Speaker 1 Yep, yeah, I have. I have several, several thoughts. Um, one question would be not pushback, necessarily, but what do you think about? Um, you know, I love the way you said it. Like I you saying I want to be careful about who I bring into the room with me to wrestle this down, whether that's a human or a robot, or a commentary, or whatever. It is yes, right, do you think we, do you think that we generally operate with that level of scrutiny, or do or do we think here are we freewheeling too much? Like would you have that same flinch using google to ask google questions about the sermon you're looking at? Like how would you think that through? You know, and where? Like where's the line, where's not the line? I guess it goes back to rules of engagement, yeah, so yeah, yeah, I don't. 25:54 - Speaker 2 I don't have a line and that's the. I think that's what it comes down Like. There's not a clear line I can give you. And that question actually is is the right question to ask like, yes, did I, did I have any problem googling you? You know googling other sermons, right about you know not the topic and watching them on youtube, which is also a technology platform. You know what I'm saying? Like, no, I had no problems and no, no problems with those things, I. I think we all understand, though, that ai some people will say ai is exactly the same as those technologies, um, and a case could probably be made intuitive. My intuition tells me ai. There's a difference in ai, um, in that ai, more than any technology that's come before, it, has the potential to replicate thought yeah yeah, yep, right, and replication of thought is different than me searching on the internet to inform thought Right information Totally. 26:49 - Speaker 1 You see what I'm saying, Yep. 26:51 - Speaker 2 Right Replication of thought and then articulation of thought is what AI can do that these other platforms have never been able to do prior to now, and so that's why the rest will be there for me. Yep, but that to do prior to now, and so that's why the rest will be there for me. But but that's why I'm saying you know another person and I, and I interviewed a friend the other day that's just like. 27:11 - Speaker 1 No AI is just. 27:11 - Speaker 2 It's just now what Google was then oh, interesting, and what he's basically just saying, like it's just a new technology that we need to learn how to use and understand. This man's a believer, he loves the Lord, he also has his own wrestles, but he has landed in a place where he doesn't see that as fundamentally different than the technology that have come before it. Um, so, so like, like, yeah, a chair, a lot of charity in interpretation there from my, yeah, I was just curious. 27:34 - Speaker 1 Yeah, a couple. One of the ways that I have found it really useful is like, uh, I was working on something that had to do with a Devo or a teaching on salt and light, and I was asking chat, you know what, do you, can you give me some of the specific Judeo, like historical Judeo uses of salt in the time of Jesus? And you know it pumped out a list of five things for me and I was like awesome, so it's, it's. I think it's an interesting thing to think about it like a research assistant, but then also balancing that with like, but do I still know how to do research? And if you know, is it so? I think that's an area too. Or like, do you have a sense, or do you have a fear, that these technologies become crutches for us and we just keep kind of like making allowances and allowances and allowances, and we get to the point where maybe we don't even have the working and keep the brain moving. And you know, um? 28:46 In a similar vein, I was just thinking about the local library recently and, yep, I'll tell you what. If I had to use the do is it dewey decimal system system to find a book, I'd be lost. I'd be lost. So to me it's a little bit like that that's completely lost in my life, whereas at some point in my life that was definitely a big thing in the way it was and I spent a lot of time in libraries, kid. But yeah, what do you do about losing some of those things? And again like, where do you draw the line? Where do you push back? Where do you? Yeah, what do you think? 29:31 - Speaker 2 that's such a good question, my friend. Um, I would. So I like to go back to foundational. So I want my fundamental relationship with everything in my life to not be fear-based, but I'd rather have my relationship with all things be hope and faith-based, right? So, even ai. I am trying not to interact with the idea of AI in a posture of fear. Yeah, right, um, and I think there's, you know, fear. Fear actually gives you a lower level tool set to work with than hope does. Fear makes you smaller. Fear makes you protective. It makes you risk averse. Um, it steals your creativity, right, um, it steals your freedom, steals your joy. So, um, so let me start there. I'll start there that I, I have a hope relationship with, maybe I would say, understanding Like I, I, I am, I don't think I'm blind to to what AI will, will do to people, right, what it's already doing to people. 30:35 They're already doing tests that are showing the cognitive function for people that lean too hard on AI, which, of course, right. Like if I stopped using my muscles, my muscles get weaker. If I stop using my mind, my mind is going to get weaker. So we know those things, right, and and um, and each person is going to have to decide, because you know we live in a free country where people are going to get to decide if they want to use AI for 70% of their life functions or 10%, right, and you, you know we're going to get to decide and so, again, not proceeding with this kind of fear-based, rule-based you have to do it this way, or yeah, or you're wrong or evil. I can say we're going to have to be to to think about things in terms of. We're going to have to be to to think about things in terms of what does the gospel say? Right, what does it mean to be a human? What is the sanctity of work? There, you know, like, god gave us work to do, so, there, there's not a reality in which it's going to be beneficial for humans to take away work, because work is fundamental to the creation. You're right, like that's before the fall. That's before the fall. God's like now go, do you got, I got work for you. Man, send this garden, no, right, and and it's good, right, everything was good and work is part of good. I mean, jordan Raynor does a lot of good, good theological work on this topic. Um so, um so. 32:14 But what is going to happen is is is only what has been happening. It's not new. What's been happening is, the more we get dependent upon our technologies, the less strong our bodies are, the less strong our minds are and the less resilient we are to struggle. Well said, yep, well said. That that's been happening, like ai, is just another step in the thing that's been happening up till now, right, um, and so that means that now is a time when I think there is a move there. 32:51 You're going to see more and more movements within the spirit and within the church that are going to call us towards suffering and towards hardship and towards difficulty, because, right, jesus, what was it? Jesus learned obedience through the things he suffered. Even Jesus, the perfect man, developed right, learn through suffering, yep, and hardship. And so in my own life that's a message I'm getting from the spirit in my own life is, um, it's not a time to be we. You know the way it manifests for me is kind of you know, like, like I'm starting to engage with breathing methods and cold showers and cold plunge and things like that as ways to remind my body, like sometimes we go into, like wim hof, I've been. 33:43 There's a guy named wim hof. This crazy, amazing dude named wim hof was his breathing and cold exposure uh kind of uh method and he says uh in his accent. I think it's a, it's maybe a Polish accent. He says go to the cold or the cold will come to you. Yes, but I think that is incredibly profound. I think that statement is profound Go to the cold or the cold will come to you. Go to adversity or adversity will come to you. You either get to be a person who's like you're David, that runs to the giant right, or you're the person that runs away from the giant and the giant comes to get you. 34:22 - Speaker 1 You see what? 34:22 - Speaker 2 I'm saying and there's a different tool set, that's what goes back to my fear versus my hope tool set. There's a different tool set that's available to me If I volitionally head into difficulty in faith, by faith that I will overcome, by the power of God and come to the other side and I will be something more right. I've come something more because of the things that I've suffered and endured, and so I don't know. I I answered. I answered your question. Plus, there was a lot more that maybe, maybe a lot more than you were bargained for. 35:01 - Speaker 1 but there you go Sounds good to me, sounds going to be well said. I love so much of what you just said. Um, even to summarize it would be futile, but it was fantastic, um, because the cause, you're right, the, the wrestling, the, you know, the fighting it out, the working it out, um, you know, that's so important to us and for us. It seems to me like, because one of the questions I was considering us working through is like if, but I think we've already covered it, so I'm going to share it with you and then you tell me if there's anything to add but a piece of advice that we can give to a pastor who wants to start using AI tools in ministry, piece of advice. And so, based upon our conversation, you know, a really important piece of advice would be to define your rules of engagement. Define your rules of engagement with these tools, with these different things that are available to you. Define those things. Ask yourself, right, like am I working from a? 36:05 home tool set or a fear tool set? That'd be a great question. And then another piece is I think I think sometimes I think this is a good practice in life generally, but I think sometimes it's good to force yourself to do the thing, just to know you can still do it. So, yeah, if you're going to use these tools as research assistance whether it be google or youtube or chat, gt or rock or whoever it is you're talking to, um, you may challenge yourself, you know, once a month or whatever, whatever to say I'm not going to use any tool, aside this Bible and the commentaries I currently own. Maybe you might say that you might. 36:53 - Speaker 2 that might be a good exercise. 36:54 - Speaker 1 So those are. Maybe those are some good pieces of advice to start with. Would you add anything or what do you think? 37:00 - Speaker 2 I would. That may be a subset. So one would be like, if you haven't yet, go play with chat, gpt, right Like, again, the fear versus the hope tool set Like, I don't think that AI is inherently evil, I think it's a tool, and a tool can be used for good or for evil. A tool can be used when it shouldn't be used, right Like, but that's for God to determine, you know. So I would say, play with it. One, understand what it is and, um, I would say, be, be prayerful about it, like with understanding of the fact. I think, if you, if you have a great understanding of the sacredness of the role, and that you know there are people listening that may not think, that, may may not see or or or feel a creation of a sermon as an act of intimacy with God, yeah, right, like that. I'm assuming that, but there might be people that just haven't thought of it like that. 38:06 - Speaker 1 Right, yeah, it could just be part of your job description. So, right, right. 38:09 - Speaker 2 So this is an invitation, right, right. So this is an invitation, right. So this is an invitation to conceive of the creation of sermon, of a sermon as a function of your intimacy with god, your relationship with your father, who is going to download something to you through the holy spirit, through your process of communication and communion with him. Yeah, right, so let's go. And if that's what's happening, like if that's, if that is what's happening, once you taste that, once that's what's going on, then I would say these shortcuts would have less of a pull or a magnetism, right, because you're you're going to say to yourself, well, why would I ask chat GPT to like what I said about poetry? You know, I'm almost cussing here, talking, thinking about having having AI write poetry for me? 39:03 right, because what? Why would I do that? Like? I am a poet, it's who I am in my inmost being. I am a pastor, right, I am a child of God in intimate relationship with my father. Why would I outsource anything from that space, right? Like you're not going to want to do it. You know what I'm saying. Like, if you're coming from that place. 39:45 - Speaker 1 So I guess that's my last word on it. Those are really important things to do and I would say that, um, unfortunately, so often we get so busy in ministry that we stop asking those questions and we just kind of start moving and going and you really have to stop to consider sometimes you know what am I doing, why am I doing it? Um, which are great questions to ask. So I'm going to ask you one last question, um, today. So what's? I wish, too, I could have a little poll going and I could say, like I bet I know what he's going to say. I bet I know, but I'm just going to ask you anyway, what's something that AI will never be able to do, that pastors must absolutely hold on to? Something that AI will never be able to do, that pastors must absolutely hold on to, something that ai will never be able to do, that pastors must absolutely hold on to. What do you think? 40:38 - Speaker 2 it's in the name, ai means artificial intelligence. The thing that ai cannot be is a human created in the image of god. It can only imitate the mental function of a human created in the image of God and maybe even increase the processing power to become something greater in mental function, right, but it cannot be a child of God, created in the image of God. It will never be that and therefore, right. Since it can never be that, it can never be a child of God. And since it can never be a child of God, it can never commune with God. There you go. It can never commune with God. It can never receive revelation from God. Right, it cannot do those things. It cannot be the ambassador of God to the people. It cannot be that. Right, so it goes back to identity, which is my calling. Right, so it goes back to identity, which is my calling. 41:31 Yeah, right, being a pastor is a sacred calling, um, and it can't be a pastor. I can't be your pastor. It can't be your pastor. It can say a lot of things to you and it can give you a lot of good counsel, and it can do all these things, but at the end of the day, you know that it's a machine that doesn't love you because it can't love you, because it's a machine. Nothing it's doing is an act of love, nothing it's doing is an act of faith, nothing it's doing is an act of righteousness, because those things are for humans and not for machines. There you go, there you go. 42:16 - Speaker 1 Come on, bro, you know how, when you're preaching and you're kind of you're going but you're looking out and you catch, like you catch that person or that family that you know what's going on in their lives, that you know what's going on in their lives and you know how this sermon may be sounding to them or received by them, or encouraging them or difficult for them. 42:40 To me, that's the piece You're never going to get the warmth. It's like you're saying you're never going to get the warmth of a pastor who sat at your dinner table and who knows your name and you know, dedicated your kids and, uh, whatever you want to say all the things, you're never going to get that. And that's the piece that, um, you know I would, I would think that we need to keep leaning into. Yeah, that's so, so, implicit even in the gifting of shepherd pastor leader is someone who walks with you and suffers with you and sits with you and has lunch with you and God loves you the warmth of another human. 43:21 So, like you said, it's right there in the name, it's artificial. You can't, you could never get there. So you could never get there, that's right. Well, if people are listening to this and they want to you know, connect with you or learn more about what you're doing. Like where are you, what are you doing? What are you excited about? 43:43 - Speaker 2 Uh, so probably the biggest, the best place to connect with me is uh is on LinkedIn. So I'm on LinkedIn. Johnny Levy, um, um, that's a. That's a great place to see. That's where I put a lot of what I'm doing. And then I have a newsletter, so I'm an author. I wrote a book called the Superpower Quest and that's available on the, the largest of which is the superpower community, which is superpower questcom, and, uh, man, I'd love for you to subscribe and see some of the things I'm talking about on uh, on that, about helping people understand their identity, their unique identity, their unique design, and learn to live in cooperation with that, with that beautiful, um, unique originality, perfect. So, yeah, superpowerquestcom. 44:38 - Speaker 1 That'd be my. Well, I'll link, we'll link all those things up in the notes and uh, thanks, man, what a great convo. I hope, hope, to have many, many more with you, my friend, many more so bro, I feel like we're in heaven for a minute. 44:52 - Speaker 2 Man, it's like I. 44:53 - Speaker 1 That was so good bro, I appreciate you so much. Well, have a great day and great week. We'll talk soon. Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with another pastor or ministry leader who you think might benefit from this conversation. And if you're looking for more tools and resources to help you preach and lead with confidence, be sure to check out sermoncentralcom slash podcast. Sermon Central is the largest online resource hub for pastors and ministry leaders. From illustrations to outlines to media, you'll find everything you need to preach and lead effectively. So check out sermoncentralcom slash podcast, where you'll even find a special podcast listener discount on our membership pricing. Check it out and stay tuned for our next episode. Thank you.