Career Transitions for Ministry Leaders: Hope, Clarity, and Planning

(0:02 - 0:23) You know, sometimes you're just not in the right place and you need to make a change. And this type of thing can even happen to pastors, ministry leaders, et cetera, who maybe recognize that they are not exactly in the role they need to be in, or they're in the wrong role, or it's just not working out. And so then you're faced with this choice about maybe making a career change and then all of the feelings that come with it. (0:24 - 0:49) Well, in today's podcast, we've got Todd Lindner with us, someone who's gone through this exact scenario and then come out on the other side with his own business that now helps others work through these transitions. So if that sounds interesting to you, then this is definitely a conversation for you as Todd has a lot of hard-earned wisdom and some great tips and insights for those who are in the process. So tune in, we're super excited about this one. (0:49 - 0:57) Thanks for listening. Todd, so cool to have you on the podcast today. I'm seriously so excited. (0:57 - 1:12) I feel like every time I talk to you, it's like talking to a kindred spirits. And we keep joking, we should have just pressed play already on the things we're talking about. So- Yeah, glad to be here, man. (1:12 - 1:27) This is exciting. I remember our first call, we got connected through Johnny and I think we put 30 minutes on the calendar, probably went 45, should have been an hour and a half. I'm glad we're getting to connect again. (1:27 - 1:50) Yeah, easily. Easily, well, one of the things I wanna do even just to begin with is, for those who don't know who you are and what you do, I'd love if you could share a little bit about the story of how you got to do what you do currently and what it is that you do currently and why that is relevant to the conversation we're gonna have today, so. Yeah, yeah, thanks, Matt. (1:51 - 2:21) So what I do is I run a company called Ministry 2 Marketplace, which should, right there, go ahead and tell you what we do. And we help people who are transitioning from ministry, so they've already made the decision, they wanna make a transition from vocational ministry work. And the way that I would define that for people who we work with specifically is either church work, missionary work, or some type of support-raising ministry, like campus ministry or some other organization like that. (2:21 - 2:50) We're not talking about working for a compassion or a world vision or something like that. We're specifically talking about one of those modes of vocational ministry. So people who are transitioning from those type of roles into marketplace jobs, and we do that through community, support, and a process that we have, as of this point, in the last couple of years, has helped 104 people at the time of this recording to make that transition. (2:51 - 3:25) And so the whole reason that I had got into this, though, was because I worked for a church myself. Right out of college, I did not go to Bible college, I did not get a seminary degree, but felt that calling from the Lord to do something meaningful for the gospel with my life and did not know what I wanted to do after college. And randomly, with massive air quotes, ended up getting a job offer from a church in Atlanta, big mega church in Atlanta. (3:26 - 3:35) And for a role that fit me, it was really exciting. And I ended up working at that church for seven years. And I led the internship and the residency programs there. (3:36 - 3:59) And so a lot of my job was helping people who were coming out of college discern whether they wanted to be in ministry or not. That was kind of like their year long discernment process. And so lots of conversations, lots of helping them to figure out if they did not want to do ministry, what would they be good at? What would they enjoy next? Lots of resume writing or helping with resume writing. (3:59 - 4:26) And then eventually my time came to, I started feeling like maybe this isn't the right spot for me in particular. And there were a few reasons why I think I started feeling that way. Number one, I had gotten married and I could not be both married to the church job and my wife, that's a deeper conversation. (4:27 - 4:47) But there was just a real tension there of how my time and my affections were directed and just financially not where I wanted to be for our family long-term. So that was number one. Number two, I just noticed that my interests were different than my peers. (4:47 - 5:07) So a lot of my coworkers were going to seminary and getting seminary degrees. And I was studying for the GMAT, which is the pre-test for getting an MBA, a master's in business administration. And I was really enjoying that, doing that during my lunch breaks, but felt a little awkward about doing that. (5:07 - 5:39) I actually would go study in the volunteer room in the kids' ministry area, because it just felt weird for me to study for a master's of business administration degree while I was doing that. And I didn't catch that at the time, but looking back, it was noticing, oh, I was reading like Forbes articles and the Wall Street Journal and interested in that kind of stuff where other people were reading theology and in their spare time. And so I noticed those two things were different. (5:39 - 6:05) And then the third thing that happened is I had a candid conversation with our executive pastor at the time who was kind of like a mentor to me, said, hey, I'm kind of like not sure what my future is here. I really enjoy people development. I ended up not getting an MBA, I get a master's in organizational leadership because I really enjoyed the people development side, but enjoyed the organizational development side. (6:05 - 6:36) Said, is that ever gonna be in the future at all? And he said, transparently, no, there's not ever going to be a role like that. And he actually had a business background. He said, Ann, man, just knowing you, I think you would actually be selling yourself short if you stayed here, which was very confusing in the moment, but very helpful long-term because it almost gave me permission to start thinking about something different. (6:37 - 6:58) But it was still a two-year process from that point for me. So the first year was just processing all the spiritual and emotional stuff. And the way that I would describe it for myself is I had to go through a process of untangling unhelpful beliefs about God, about myself, about work. (6:59 - 7:17) And that included, was I giving up on my call, on God's call for my life? Who was I gonna disappoint? The lead pastor of this church married us. The lead worship leader led worship at our wedding. So many people, so many volunteers. (7:18 - 7:35) I think a quarter of the church staff at the time I had actually hired through our internship program. So, so many very close-knit relationships. Didn't know how I was going to, also I didn't know how I was going to explain myself to other people because I was the church guy. (7:36 - 7:43) And that was wrapped up in my identity. So there was some untangling that happened to happen there. And then I did have the desire to make more money. (7:43 - 8:05) I was at a director level, making entry-level corporate money, and I just, I was wrestling with whether it was a sin to want more money or not. That's the culture I grew up in, so I was wondering about that. And it took me a whole year to get through all that and process through all that stuff. (8:06 - 8:16) And then it took me a whole nother year to actually find a job. Because I had no clue what I wanted to do. I had no idea how to talk about my experience. (8:17 - 8:24) I didn't even know where to look. I think I had a LinkedIn profile from college. I would log back in for the first time. (8:24 - 8:46) I was like, I guess I should connect with all my high school friends. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. And through that process, I ended up getting a job in HR at a fantastic company with an incredible culture, Christian founder, and they had actually hired multiple people from the internship that I led before me. (8:46 - 9:18) So I kind of had the, oh, well, if these people are performing well, then their old boss must have had something going good. And so they took a chance on me, which I was very, very grateful for and got to be a part of their team. But the interesting thing happened, and when I transitioned, Matt, all of these people, some were my coworkers, some were other people from other ministries and churches that I was connected with, they started asking me, like, hey, I'm trying to do that. (9:18 - 9:36) How did you do that? And so I just kind of started coaching my friends for fun, just to help them out, to process what's going on next. And then a couple of years later, COVID happened. Every one of their mom got laid off, including myself. (9:37 - 9:53) And when that happened, and I was trying to figure out what I was going to do next, a bunch of people started coming to me for career advice. And I didn't realize I was the career guy, but I started getting calls from friends and texts from friends. And then I started getting calls and texts from my friends' friends, who I did not know. (9:54 - 10:07) And then a couple of people offered me money to help them with their job search. And it was like a light bulb moment. Oh, wait, like, I can make a living doing this? That's wild to me. (10:07 - 10:24) And so in 2020, I started doing career coaching full-time. And in March of 2023, we pivoted away from generic career coaching to specifically helping people with my story. We're transitioning from ministry into the marketplace. (10:25 - 10:35) And that's how we ended up doing what we're doing now. And now we have a team, which is super fun. It's me and my wife got to quit her job, so she's working with me full-time. (10:36 - 10:56) And then we have a few other people on our team. Really fun. Man, that's, you said so many things that I wanna ask about, but we'll just get to what, so you, there was a point of your story that I think is really important, but you had someone in leadership over you who was really encouraging and pivotal. (10:56 - 11:38) And have you ever thought about like, what if that conversation would have gone differently? Like what, maybe not that you wouldn't have ended up where you are now, but how pivotal was it to have that leader, mentor say to you, hey, I hear you, I see what you're doing, but I think you're selling yourself short and seeing something in you and kind of calling it out at you? And that's such a great question. I think it was pivotal. I think I would have ended up in the same space, but with a lot more doubt and probably a lot more time in between. (11:38 - 12:17) The discernment process, for all the people that I've spoken with, I was counting it up, I think I've done almost 600 different calls in the last two and a half years with people who are thinking about transitioning from ministry. And the discernment process takes a lot of time, oftentimes years. And I think it was probably expedited for me, which is funny to say that it was a year of discerning and then it was expedited because I had somebody who knew what I was doing, I think inherently probably valued what I was doing because I was essentially the funnel for a growing church's staff. (12:19 - 12:55) And yet he said, I'm just gonna be honest with you, I think there's way more for you out there as someone in the marketplace. And that essentially, I think, gave me permission to believe that, and this might sound weird, but to believe that the highest call in my life did not have to be a W-2 from a church. And that was an interesting moment, for sure, that I think was pivotal. (12:56 - 13:25) Yeah, that is a pivotal moment and that's a foundation cracker, if you will. Like our fundamental beliefs, it kind of like is a nuclear bombs of those things. So when you're coaching and working with others, do you see this type of moment in their stories too? Like some kind of aha or some kind of, and I guess I may answer my own question, but I'm curious about your experience. (13:25 - 14:16) Like is there varying levels of time that people need to work through that cracking and that reorienting of their identity and their fundamental beliefs about what it means to be purpose-filled and to be a believer and to be a minister and all those things? Oh man, there's so much there, right? It is my experience, not just in these conversations, but I think my very short experience on this planet is that everyone has a different story at a different pace and God lead people at different times in different ways. What I have noticed is that most people do have a moment. That could be a positive moment, like some of what I had with that executive pastor who encouraged me. (14:17 - 14:42) Jake, thank you for doing that. But then also sometimes it's a breaking point in their marriage where there's a, the spouses could be from the wife's side if the husband is working for the ministry or it could be from the husband's side if the wife's working for the ministry, where it's a, this doesn't work for us and something needs to change. It could be that. (14:42 - 15:11) It could be how to talk to a student pastor who said, I'm more of a parent to the kids in my youth ministry than to my own kids because I spend more time with them than my own kids and I'm not okay with that. And that was like a moment they realized that. So the moments can all come and I think there's, those are tipping points but those aren't necessarily the ejection buttons if that makes sense. (15:14 - 15:32) Yeah, that's a great way to say it. It's like a little bit of a movement but it's not exactly a expulsion or like a forcible exit. But yeah, that's really good because it, I don't know, it just makes me think about, you know, these moments that God orchestrates in our lives and the different things that happen to us. (15:32 - 16:15) And even in your story, it was, I was laughing a little bit to myself because you know how people, so often they, how would I say it? We wonder like, these questions are like, well God, what have you really gifted me for? What did you make me for? What's my purpose? I mean, those are legitimate and super important existential questions that we all have to ask. But in your story, I thought it was interesting how you were saying that on your lunch break you're reading business books in Forbes and Wall Street Journal, things like that. Did you have like, was it funny for you to look up and look around and realize like, oh, my friends are doing like exegetical studies and I'm reading economics. (16:15 - 16:51) Like, there's clearly something, not bad, but just, oh, I find myself liking this more. Like, what did that feel like for you? Yeah, you know what's interesting is I, I felt like I actually helped round out the team. And so for me in the moment, it wasn't a, I'm so like, I'm different and maybe this doesn't have an alignment, like culturally or vocationally here. (16:51 - 17:03) It was more of, I'm learning these things. Like, look at this cool other thing that I can bring to the church staff. So for me, I thought like I was bringing something positive. (17:04 - 17:40) And what was interesting is I found myself extremely frustrated. And staff meetings, like large staff meetings, smaller meetings, just because I had a set of values that oriented themselves and probably lended themselves to be more successful in a marketplace environment, specifically like in an entrepreneurial environment, which is how I started working with the church. So I was the 13th employee on the church staff. (17:41 - 18:08) When I left, there were 125 people on the staff. So the environment changed and the values and the culture changed. And what helped me, this is probably the other like pivot moment for me or the waterfall moment for me, was in one of my classes, I was talking to a professor about the tensions that I felt and I couldn't explain. (18:08 - 18:40) And I felt honestly guilt and some shame for like, why do I, why am I super frustrated? Like we're doing the Lord's work in Jesus' name. People are coming to know Jesus and we're, we see it out in the hallway. We got a big installation that shows how many people and like, it's awesome, right? Why am I infuriated in these meetings? And my professor very wisely said, well, there might be a misalignment of what's important to you. (18:42 - 19:09) And so he had me go through a personal values exercise, which is actually one of the first things that we do in our coaching is have people go through a personal values exercise and just identify what's important to you about life and work. And just name it, put some words on it. So he said, do this, get your list, top 10 personal values, and then go to the stated values of the organization and compare your list. (19:10 - 19:17) That should give you some insight. It's like, oh yeah, of course it would. So I was expecting similarity, obviously, because I worked there for so long. (19:19 - 19:38) And not a single one of my top 10 or in the top 13 of the church's stated values. So that was another pivotal point for me where it actually wasn't as much that my interests are different. It was more of, oh, culturally, I don't align here. (19:38 - 19:56) My values are different. And what I had been trying to do, which I did not realize until this point, is I had been trying to change everyone and help everyone see my way of seeing things. And what my professors basically showed me is like values are neutral. (19:57 - 20:12) They're not good, they're not bad, they're just a reflection of what's important to you. If someone has completely different values, that's okay. And we can celebrate the diversity in those values, but it might be that you're in the wrong environment. (20:13 - 20:36) And there's an environment that is healthier for you, which happened to be the next place that I worked afterwards that was way more in alignment, culturally, with my values. So that was more of the notice for me on the difference. That's an incredible, I hope people listening, because that's an incredible exercise that anybody could do. (20:37 - 20:57) Just exactly what you just said, do a personal values evaluation and compare that list to where you're currently working or wanting to work, et cetera, and just kind of compare and contrast. Yeah, so there's a bunch of free ones online. I did the one from Harvard Business Review, which I think you can just go Google and it's free. (20:59 - 21:28) So yeah, super, super easy. I also hope people listening are, I'm struck by the organic and really beautiful nature of the journey that you took. Because I understand there was frustration along the way, but I think that we maybe wrongly romanticize or assume there has to be some type of nuclear meltdown or some type of horrible experience or something to then, like we talked about, jettison us out. (21:29 - 21:55) But yours was, I could be wrong, but it seems like it was a very organic, again, like I said, there was beautiful points along the way and God just kept kind of, you kept listening, you kept being faithful, and then at some point you found yourself in this role you're currently in, which he continues to develop, actually, in fact, so. Yeah, there were some moments. There were some painful moments, for sure. (21:56 - 22:21) But that was, I think that's a part of the process. And in the moment, it was really hard. And what I wish I had done before is be able to create a little emotional separation from the experience and notice, and just get curious about my emotion around the things and what does that reveal about myself and the way I see the world and myself. (22:23 - 22:40) And one of the pivotal books for me was Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzaro at that time, and it just revealed I was an unhealthy human being. And it was really helpful for me to read that. Another one was Hiding From Love by Dr. John Townsend. (22:41 - 22:58) It's a really old one of his books. And that also helped me to see, like, I had some really unhealthy survival instincts and habits here that manifest themselves in the workplace. And those were also helpful for me because a lot of the pain was self-inflicted. (22:59 - 23:45) And then some of the pain was just confusion, like, I would say role confusion, right? Like, if your pastor is your boss and you're having questions about your career, or do you go to the person who you would typically go to to talk about questions about your career, which is your pastor? Or is that a safe place to actually do that? Or if you're having struggle in your marriage, do you go to the person who then is gonna remove you from the stage that you may or may not really, really love because you're struggling in your marriage? Which is what happened to me. And that was painful. And looking back, like, now I look back, it was their call, it's fine. (23:46 - 24:02) I'm far enough removed, but my wife and I were having a hard time and we both got removed from the stages we were on without any explanation. And that was really hard in the moment because we didn't understand it. And we're like, we're just coming for help. (24:02 - 24:18) It was like, okay, and you're not in a place to do ministry, so bye. And, you know, that stuff happens. And I actually am not, like, I think there's some validity to that and that's fine. (24:18 - 24:29) But in the moment, I was not in a place where that was, I was like, yeah, great idea. I think that's so awesome. Thank you for taking away the thing that makes me feel valuable here. (24:30 - 24:54) That's awesome, right? So, but overall, I think it was a great experience and love my coworkers and saw some of them last week at a church event and it was great to see those people. Yeah, well, what a beautiful, beautiful story. I totally understand the highs and lows, there's pain, suffering, triumph, et cetera. (24:54 - 25:18) But what I don't get from you is like an undertone of bitterness. And I love that, that you, when you describe it, you know, it sounds, you sound genuinely grateful. And I'm sure that that helps to make you really powerful in the job that you currently have, because, yeah, if you're carrying around this bitterness and this anger about what happened, it's hard to help other people get free, so. (25:19 - 25:39) So yes, I love that that, you know, has gone the way it's gone for you. I wanna, if you're up for it, but I wanna kind of transition a little bit. So your story, getting you to this point, but now that you're in this point, as you mentioned, you've now helped 104 people transition. (25:39 - 26:04) And I'm assuming if you're watching the video, you have a little timer behind you that says 104. Is that representative of the people? Yeah, that's our live counter. One of the fun things that we do is when somebody gets a job on one of our group coaching calls, we live change the number and then shoot off a confetti cannon. (26:05 - 26:14) Yeah. And so it's just like a fun celebration moment. So we like to keep a live counter and then I'll have people in our group like, I'm gonna get 105, I'm gonna get 106. (26:15 - 26:25) So that's cool. I can't wait. I'll be excited to see you on a video sometime when that's 1,500 or 5,000 or, oh, that'll be so fun. (26:25 - 27:00) But so what I wanted to do a little bit is, so 104 people you've helped to have jobs through the process, but then there's other hundreds of people that you've talked with at some point in the process. So you've got hundreds and hundreds of conversations under your belt. So I wanna kind of fire off some questions for you and I want you to just kind of share what would be your answer now as someone who's in the role you're in with the experience you have? Does that sound fair? Yeah, absolutely. (27:01 - 27:08) Let's go. All right, let's do it. So this one you already said, but I'm curious if you kind of lasered a little bit more. (27:09 - 27:37) What about the question that people ask is, so am I giving up on God's calling for my life? Man. Calling, here's what I'll say. Calling is one of those things that I think everyone you talk to is gonna have a slightly different definition of. (27:38 - 28:18) And in my experience, in most of my conversations, every one of those definitions is truth to that person. And so I think that's a, I think that's something that's between you and God of how, what is God calling you to and what is the manifestation of that calling now? And the manifestation of that calling could change over time. And one calling that I do think we have if we're married and have kids is to be a spouse and to be a parent. (28:19 - 29:32) And I think it's a real, probably the most common conversation I have with people is I'm wrestling between this calling that I feel to a vocation and the calling to my family, and they are not lining up right now. And the biggest tension is do we push through this and do we sacrifice for the gospel and suffer as we're instructed to and take joy in that stuff? Or do we make adjustments in order to, for one or the other to thrive? And I don't have, I don't think that I have any fantastic wisdom on that, but I think it's a good conversation to have with other people and internally and with God and to do that exercise of noticing what tensions do you have, noticing the belief systems and the filters you have one way or another. And you can, the thing is, is you can go on the internet and find anyone who will support whatever you think right now. (29:33 - 29:53) And so that's probably not the best way to do it. Because you can find anybody to support whatever you're doing right now. But it's truly getting deep and saying like, what really is God calling me to that's the core thing. (29:55 - 30:06) And for me, that was more so family. And I came at peace with that. It was hard, but I came at peace with that. (30:06 - 30:30) For some people, everybody's on board and it's family on mission together. Jefferson Bethke, who does some family type of work, distinguishes three types of families he notices. One is families on mission, one is family and mission, and then one is family as mission. (30:31 - 31:06) So is it your mission, it's your family, your mission when you're here on planet Earth? Or do you have your mission, your job, and your family and those two things are separate? Or is it all integrated together? And he has an opinion on what is best. But I think it's a good filter to just see what is happening in life right now between family and vocation and maybe other things that are going on. So it's probably one of the primary tensions that I have conversations with people. (31:06 - 31:52) And one of the things that we're really intentional with is we will not work with anybody who's still in that discernment process. Because we, it's such an important place to get to and really internally come to this is what my next space is vocationally because there is calling and a spiritual element that's wrapped up into the vocation of working for our church or being a missionary or something like that. If you have a job and you're in sales and you're traveling four days a week and you wanna spend more time with family, nobody's gonna question you for going and getting a different job. (31:54 - 32:21) That's not the case coming from ministry. And so you need some internal fortitude and some internal decisiveness because you're going to come against opposition to people who disagree with that, especially if you're in a pastor role and people are really confused why you're not gonna be their spiritual guide anymore, functionally. So you need to come to that before starting going to looking for another job. (32:21 - 32:37) And so that's the encouragement that we give to people. Like, I'm not gonna make your life more complicated if you're not sure that this is the way you want this. Yeah, I hope people will be willing to rewind and re-listen to what you just said because you're so right. (32:37 - 32:58) The internal fortitude and having some clarity and then the frameworks through which to think about these things. I know in our life, interestingly enough, in those frameworks, are the answers to those frameworks changed? At different times, the answers were different. And so there were times when the answer was, no, we're gonna do this together, let's go. (32:59 - 33:12) We need to keep going. And then eventually the answer was, no, we aren't jiving anymore and it's not gonna work. And so, yeah, you're totally right that you have to really have some clarity. (33:12 - 33:59) And then that's where the discernment and the mentorship and the leadership and the fellowship is so helpful. Having those trusted counselors in your life who know you well enough and care about you well enough to put aside what they may want to say, hey, I think this is gonna be best for you, X, Y, or Z. Yeah, and I would also add, and we were talking about this right before, Matt, it's not always A or B. There might be option C or option D. I'm talking to somebody, literally messaging with somebody earlier today on LinkedIn and they said, I am going to be a substitute teacher because I'm helping to plan a church and so I'm gonna be bi-vocational. Their tension is, is they don't think substitute teaching is vocationally what they should be doing. (34:00 - 34:33) But they're owning the bi-vocational nature of being a church planner, being a pastor, and financially providing for their family in a different way. That's an option C. I know in some church traditions that's not gonna go over super well. Well, it is an option C. There are other ways of doing it as well that you can be a lay elder or you could, like whatever your church tradition does, there are other ways to have influence, still be able to preach. (34:33 - 34:55) There's the church that I attend. One of my former clients who's been in a non-church role for two years preached there a few weeks ago. And so I'm sitting in the seats watching this guy who I helped get another job do what he's felt called to. (34:57 - 35:05) So it doesn't have to be one or the other. There's a bunch of different ways that can happen. Ugh, yeah. (35:06 - 35:15) Again, rewind, re-listen. By the way, God is a big God. I mean, you're talking about the creator of the cosmos. (35:15 - 35:34) You don't think he can get creative with your vocation and creative with the ways that you make money and creative with the ways that he works out in you what he already put there to begin with. Like that's, what an important thing for us to remember. Yeah, that must have been kind of surreal for you to see all this happening. (35:34 - 35:39) It was like all these worlds colliding at once. Yeah, it's a special moment for sure. Really, really cool. (35:41 - 36:06) Something we were talking about a few episodes ago, I had a really great conversation with a woman named Peggy Bodie. And we were talking about, so we were talking about women in leadership and ministry. So that's kind of a different conversation, but where there's connection is this idea that came up about just the fundamental, like the cost of living, which has gone up so much. (36:07 - 37:11) And so anyway, what I think, and I'm curious what you think is, what I think is important to recognize in some of these conversations is that like, whereas let's just say for 30, 40, 20 years ago, maybe you could have gotten by with a, if you're married, having one spouse, have an income and the other spouse, maybe pursue a degree in ministry and then pursue this calling in air quotes, right? That doesn't seem to be a reality as much anymore. And so, yeah, this whole concept of being bivacational or having a side gig or the gig economy or doing this or the other thing to make money, you know, isn't it? It's just so interesting that we just bang up against the reality of our culture and are maybe unwilling to just accept it. Like this is the reality of where we live. (37:11 - 37:59) And in the case of your friend or acquaintance who was a substitute teacher, you know, I don't know if I'm a pastor and I have an opportunity to be in a classroom with 30, you know, a captive audience of 30 kids every day. Seems like a pretty cool way to work out my pastoral calling, but we push against it because to your point of what you said earlier is like, because my W-2 doesn't have the name of a church on it. So such an interesting like time and space we're in where the money conversation, the vocation conversation is becoming more of just like, it's an inevitable. (38:00 - 38:20) You can't, your bills are too high. Like you're gonna have to do something to pay them. I would say that close to half of the conversations I have, there's a money component of we're not making enough money. (38:23 - 38:31) Yeah. So that again, hopefully people caught that. So half, you know, you're talking to hundreds of people and so you're saying half. (38:31 - 39:27) And I hope, you know, if elder boards or leadership teams, just, I hope that people recognize like this is a very real pain point. And that brings me up, that brings up another question I wanted to fire your way, which is what do you say to this idea of, is it sinful of me to want to make more money? And how do I balance, right? Like this quote unquote call to suffer for the sake of the gospel and Jesus, like I could pull out these different scriptures where I could go, well, see, Jesus said, don't bring anything and follow me. So how do you balance that? And how do you, you know, what conclusions have you come to as you've worked with people through that question? I don't know if I'm the right person to speak to that in particular, cause that's not my expertise. (39:28 - 39:45) But what I'm having here, here's what's interesting to me, Matt. Oh, here, here's what I'll do. I'll report on the why behind the money comment I hear, because that's always something that I'm interested in digging into with people of say, I want to make more money. (39:45 - 40:11) And I'll actually ask, what do you want to make? And I'll get a number. And usually it's a, this is what I'm making now. I want to make that with opportunity to grow, or this is what I'm making now, and I want to make 20 or 30,000 more than that, or whatever the number is, which is a lot of money. (40:14 - 40:45) And those are helpful for me because it gives me a little insight into the why behind the what. So usually if somebody says, I want to make the same, but with greater opportunity, I dig into that a little bit. And we generally have a conversation of, well, what I really want is to be in a place where I can grow, and there's a future for me. (40:45 - 41:16) And we're okay today, but if things keep going the way they're going, we're not going to be okay, and there's not a future for me where I am currently. And sometimes I'll push back on that and say, okay, is that an assumption, or did you really ask? Because here's a little side note. If you want to stay in a church job, you're just not making enough money, and you haven't asked yet to make more money, you need to just go do that. (41:17 - 41:46) You need to just go, well, first check your personal finances, and if you just bought a $100,000 car, and you're like, we can't eat, it's like, okay, let's pack up a second here. But I mean, for one of my clients currently was raising his own support, has seven kids and a mortgage, and he's capped at how much he can raise. Like, okay, at some level, we need to, that makes sense to me. (41:47 - 42:00) You're not living lavishly. You have chickens, so you can buy eggs, right? But check your personal finances first, but then just go have a conversation. Say, hey, transparently, I'm struggling. (42:00 - 42:20) Is there a way that I can make $5,000 more, or $10,000 more, or I've been promoted two times, and I've gotten a $2,000 raise in total. Can we maybe adjust a little bit? Don't even have the inflation conversation. Just go have that conversation first, if you haven't yet. (42:21 - 42:40) But if you already have had the conversation, that's where I'm hearing is people, what they really want is not to make more money. What they really want is they want to be able to send their kids to college, because college debt is debilitating. What people really want is to leave their kids something when they die. (42:41 - 43:11) What people really want is, I hear this from husbands specifically, we want to homeschool our kids, and that's not possible right now, because my wife wants to do the homeschooling, but she's working, because she has to. We have to have two incomes. Or, to the youth pastor example, or any others, we are abdicating our responsibility to disciple our children, because we cannot feed them otherwise, and so they go to daycare. (43:12 - 43:36) Now, that's not me personally, that's not my view, necessarily, but that's what I hear, that type of stuff. And so it makes sense that when people are saying, I want more money, and I struggle with that, when they get to that point, they're not really saying, I want more dollars in my bank account, what they're really saying is, I want to set my family up for a win. I want to disciple my kids. (43:36 - 43:56) I don't want to be stressed financially all of the time. Someone might still give pushback, and be like, figure it out. I've heard that plenty of times from people, ironically, people who have never been pastors before, being like, well, they should figure it out. (43:56 - 44:07) I'm like, okay, you work for Amazon, you get paid $350,000 a year. Like, you go do it, and you figure it out. Or, why don't you give all your money to that person? Side conversation. (44:08 - 44:23) But it's the, you're still going to get pushback, which goes back to what we were talking about earlier. You have to have that internal fortitude, that decision internally. What I'm doing is for my family. (44:24 - 44:39) But don't make a rash decision, because then you get to partner with the Holy Spirit on it, and see if there is any selfish motives. And if there is selfish motive, it doesn't mean that you're necessarily wrong. You just need to get to neutral on that, and align yourself with God's will for your life. (44:39 - 44:54) And that still might be making more money, to provide for your family. So, I think it's a conversation with the Holy Spirit, more than anything. I mean, he knows our hearts. (44:54 - 45:05) You know their motives. Are you familiar with the book, or the teaching, it's called The Question Behind the Question? Fill me in. Well, you're doing it. (45:05 - 45:51) I just was, I'm just impressed that like, because I feel like what you're, how you're setting things up is, you know, again, you're taking the face value of these questions, or these emotions that we have, and you're digging in behind it. Like you said, like, okay, great, you wanna make more money, but why? Can I ask what's going on? And again, that's a great point of discernment that people can start with, if they're listening, and they're frustrated. You know, well, why am I frustrated? Why, you know, why do I feel pinched? Why do I, why am I responding the way I'm responding? I think you and I have probably, we could talk for another hour about, I think you and I have had a similar experience of, like the internal work that we had to do as our identity was shifting. (45:52 - 46:19) Why do I feel so ashamed and rejected right now? Why do I feel so less than in this process? Like, what the heck's going on? So, so that's a, that's huge, and I love that, like you said, you know, we're not gonna work with someone if they're not, you know, if they're still in the discernment process. If I heard you right in saying that. That's correct. (46:20 - 47:38) Yeah, so, you know, trying to really pinpoint, you know, where is the person in this process? And so how do you, what's been your experience with this idea of purpose, identity, purpose, et cetera? I guess we could lump a lot of it in together, but what's been your experience with people who are scared because they're like, I mean, there's no, there's no easy way to say it, but they're scared. And I felt this, so I can even just speak personally, but you're scared because your whole life, you believed that the apex of meaning was to have that ministry job. And so then to leave that ministry job means, you know, ergo means I am now walking away from the apex of meaning in my life, and what am I gonna do then? What, what the heck? And so what's been your experience with that? And then also as a caveat, can you share some stories of success of like people who've gone on and who then report back and say, oh my gosh, Todd, I am feeling so much purpose in this space I'm in now, and here's how it went for me. (47:39 - 48:25) Yeah, yeah, that's, well, it makes a lot of sense, right? Especially if you come from a background, like if you're a pastor's kid, or if you went to Bible college, where from a very impressionable age, where you're still trying to figure out who you are, you get these messages that this is such a high calling. This is, I think, there's like different people who speak about it different ways. I think maybe it was a Spurgeon who said, try to do anything else besides being in ministry before trying to be in ministry. (48:26 - 49:06) But then on the other side, you have like Martin Luther, who said basically that like your pastor, treat your pastor as like the voice of God, which is butchering the quote, but it's similar to that. And so you have these different people talking about what it's like to be in ministry. And for me specifically, I remember sitting in staff meetings and kicking off staff meetings with stories about what was happening in the church and how great things were. (49:07 - 49:30) And then we'd follow up and say, isn't this literally the best thing ever? Can you imagine working anywhere else? Like, look at what we get to do around here. And then you're, I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, but I am thinking about working somewhere else. And that's very confusing to have that experience. (49:30 - 49:40) And you're like, I've got Forbes on the mind. I've got my MBA on the mind and you know, yeah. Sorry to interrupt, go ahead, yeah, but that's. (49:40 - 50:07) No, no, no, no, you're right, you're right. And it's like, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance that happens and there's a lot of internal soul dissonance that happens when you have that experience like that. And so I 100% resonate and understand why someone might be fearful or might struggle with that. (50:07 - 50:37) And I think for me personally, it was a struggle of whatever I go to next will not feel as purposeful as this, vocationally. And I think what I get to do now is unique in that it feels very much like ministry. I don't believe that a career change changes everything and fixes everything in your life, but I do believe that it can be a catalyst for that. (50:39 - 50:57) And so I get to help catalyze these monumental changes in people's lives, but I run a for-profit. Yes. Like that's how we're taxed, like people pay for our services, so I'm in the marketplace, though what I do I think is pretty unique. (50:58 - 51:35) However, when I moved into my HR job, newsflash, the work was less purposeful day-to-day, it was. However, I got to lead a Bible study that I wouldn't have been able to lead otherwise, where I was walking with guys through life in ways that I could not have otherwise because I was a pastor. Because I was a pastor, because I had the title, they never would have said the things that they said, they never would have shared the things that they shared. (51:36 - 52:17) So because I was a pastor beforehand, now I'm in this Bible study and I'm just an HR guy, and there's freedom in that, and I got to do life with people in a way that I didn't get to because my nine-to-five beforehand and other hours, the other 60 or 70 hours I was working was in a church building, but these people didn't want to go to the church building. And so there's a lot of ministry that happened because I did not want to go to church, rather than happening because I did. So in some ways, was my nine-to-five less purposeful? Maybe, maybe not, it's probably a matter of perspective. (52:18 - 52:57) But I got to do purposeful work and purposeful ministry outside of that that I couldn't have done otherwise. So it just shifted into something different for me personally. There's somebody who was a pastor on our team, or not on our team, our client, who is in a sales role, and he has relationships with these executives in the sales role, but he told me the other day, he said, Todd, I basically just pastor executives now, because I'm having conversations, and in sales, just to reframe sales for somebody who doesn't, has never been in sales before, and sales feels like you're selling used cars. (52:59 - 53:13) What sales is, is it's having a conversation with someone to get to know their real problems, and then seeing if you have the solution to their problem. What you do most of the conversation is, tell me about what you would like to happen. Tell me about your dreams. (53:14 - 53:37) Tell me about what you're hoping for. What's the pain you have? What's the problem you're dealing with? Ooh, tell me more about that. Why is that hard for you? And eventually they say, and you know what? This is so, this sucks so much, whoever you're selling to, this sucks so much, it keeps me up at night, I'm not sleeping, and then that makes me a bad dad in the morning. (53:37 - 54:04) Sorry. Pastor moment, right? But he's in a sales role, so he still gets to pastor, he still gets to have conversations with people. I was in HR, I filled out lots of forms, which was not fun, but I also had lots of great conversations with general managers across the country for this organization about leading their team, and navigating conflict. (54:04 - 54:26) Pastor moments, how can I help you, help your team do conflict better, right? So a lot of it's perspective, and functionally you may be doing some things that don't feel like it, but there's moments for it everywhere. Yes, you're putting such a big smile on my face. It probably won't come through in the audio version of this podcast. (54:27 - 54:44) But I love it. Dude, I wanted to tell you, I have a sneaky suspicion that God is delighting in deploying all these trained pastors out into these vocational roles. Just a sneaky suspicion. (54:45 - 55:01) Can I tell you a vision? Yes. What I'm hoping for, for our future. Part of what we are looking into longer term is, well maybe you know somebody, so maybe you can tell me afterwards. (55:01 - 55:16) We want to partner with someone who is an expert in AI ethics, and then send pastors into that field. AI is the future. It's here whether we like it or not. (55:16 - 55:23) It's gonna integrate itself into everything. I sound like a Matrix or Terminator right now. But it's integrating itself into everything that we do. (55:24 - 55:44) And the people who are leading the conversation generally do not have the same moral stance on the world that we do. You look, and I know this is slightly deviating from the conversation, but you look at OpenAI. They made an announcement two or three weeks ago that they're gonna allow erotic content in chat GPT. (55:48 - 56:18) Okay, well what if we inserted pastors into that conversation? What if we inserted pastors into the AI ethics conversation and into that conversation, and technology starts getting built in secular companies with the influence of pastors? Like there's so much opportunity. Corporations are the people who are making the actual waves. Like the decisions that are being made, the things that are happening, the way culture is moving, that happens at the corporate level. (56:19 - 56:39) I think we all wish we could say it happened at the local church level. It's not happening at the local church level. It's the people in the corporations who are making these moves, and what if we had people who are pastors in places of influence in those organizations? That's what our company is built on. (56:40 - 56:45) And you can be via vocational doing it too. Yep. Yeah, I actually know. (56:45 - 57:04) There's so much opportunity there. Yep, yep. We just met with some friends over the weekend, and my buddy's wife is a, they're a family of believers, and his wife's brilliant, and she's working with a group that is trying to train AI. (57:05 - 57:22) She's a computer science teacher and expert, and so she's working with AI doing that, but she's a believer in forming a computer science conversation with the AI models, and I'm like, oh man, this is what I'm talking about. Yeah. This is what I'm talking about. (57:22 - 58:30) I think, again, like I said, just to be super clear, I just think God is delighting in deploying all of these trained people into these spaces, and which makes me, from the jump, made me so excited to talk to you about what you're doing because you're helping to facilitate this change for people and encouraging them, and guess what? Todd, you're pastoring people through this process. Like, holy smokes, you're still doing this thing in such a beautiful way. So, man, so what an exciting time, but what about the person listening? I've asked you some of the questions I was thinking that people could be mulling over, but what's your encouragement to those folks listening who are, they are frustrated and they want to make a change? Can you give kind of a, here's my, what do they call it, an elevator pitch? Here's my pitch to you about what you can do to get started down the road of discernment. (58:32 - 59:02) Start kind of hacking your way out of the woods of confusion or frustration. Like, what do you tell people and what are those things that you, what is your elevator pitch? Yeah, it might be helpful to share our process that anyone can follow on their own. So this is the process that we've found is the best way for anyone who's trying to transition out of ministry to get a marketplace job. (59:03 - 59:27) Now, whether you want, like, support and guidance and community surrounding that, that's a different conversation. The process that we've not just observed for ourselves, but seen other people do, is if you're looking to make that transition, step one is to get clarity on the job you're looking for next. So let's put in this, maybe a little word picture here. (59:27 - 59:45) Let's say your toilet's broken and you don't know how to fix it. It's not one of those simple fixes. What you're not going to do is go and call a car mechanic, right, because you'd call them and they'd be like, what, wrong number, hang up. (59:45 - 59:59) You can call a plumber, because a plumber solves your problem of a broken toilet. Well, that's how companies hire. What they don't do is like, we need a salesperson or we need someone in HR. (59:59 - 1:00:07) What they do is they say, we have a people problem. We have a money coming in problem. We have a money going out problem. (1:00:07 - 1:00:34) Not enough people know about us problem. And so they try to solve the problem and they brainstorm and they try to do it themselves and they realize that they can't do it themselves. Then they go to the HR team and say, okay, HR, here's our problem, who do we hire? And the HR team will say, well, categorically, your group of problems is usually solved by this title right here. (1:00:35 - 1:00:52) So let's go hire this title. So if you can't say the job you want next, you will not be able to explain why you are the plumber, the solution to that person's problem. And with that, it's going to affect your resume, it's going to affect your read-in, it's going to affect the conversations that you have. (1:00:52 - 1:01:25) And another, for anyone who's already on this process, you don't know what you're doing next, likely you have gotten coffee or a lunch with someone. And one of the questions they will say to you is, well, what do you want to do next? And if you don't have an answer, the conversation will turn from you getting a job to helping you figure out what you want to do next. But if you do know what you want to do next and you have that title, the conversation can stay focused on getting you into interviews, because you can't get offers unless you have interviews. (1:01:26 - 1:01:46) And so that's kind of, that's the North Star, that's what you're aiming at for success. So instead of having a bunch of conversations that end in, well, go talk to this person or listen to this podcaster, try this assessment or read this book, say, I know someone hiring for that role, let me text them right now and say they need to interview you. That's the kind of conversation you want to be having. (1:01:47 - 1:02:02) So you have to have clarity on that next role to have that conversation. So that's step one. Step two in that process is then to become what we call an attractive candidate or to develop your attractive candidate presence, both offline and online. (1:02:03 - 1:02:30) So that means translating your experience so that it's going to make sense to hiring managers. That's instead of saying, preaching a sermon, saying something different, and I'm not going to say what it is because it's different for each job, right? In a sales job, it could be getting presentations. In marketing, it could be creating some sort of marketing video, right? It's completely different. (1:02:31 - 1:02:39) Or running a webinar, that's more marketing land. Same kind of thing, but different words. So we've got to translate our experience. (1:02:39 - 1:02:49) And some people, I think, I've talked to people sometimes, Matt, who say, well, I just have tension with that. Like, I feel like I'm lying. I feel like I'm not being honest. (1:02:50 - 1:03:01) And my pushback to that is, well, do you preach in Greek? No. Well, that's the original language. That's how Paul did it. (1:03:02 - 1:03:21) But no one speaks Greek in your congregation. So you preach it in English because you could preach in Greek and for the first five seconds, everybody's like, oh, wow, you're smart. And then the next 45 minutes, they would just be frustrated and probably not come back, right? So you need to translate into someone else's language so that they can understand it. (1:03:21 - 1:03:35) That's a kindness to them. If you're the best candidate, the best thing you can do for them, it's serving them to speak their language if you're the best person for the job. So you got to translate that experience, get into the resume and onto LinkedIn. (1:03:35 - 1:03:47) So offline and online presence and practice talking about it. And then the final thing is to get what we call a predictable process to get interviews. Because again, if you don't have interviews, you can't get offers. (1:03:48 - 1:04:08) So what's the process? A plus B plus C plus D, that you know you can on repeat do over and over again that statistically will get you into more interviews. And there's two things that I see happen, two mistakes I see people make often. Here we go. (1:04:08 - 1:04:34) One is to only apply online. Statistics tell us that it's a 1% chance, maybe even less if you apply online called of getting an interview, not even an offer, just an interview. So if you want to play the 1% or less game, if you want to get on average one interview for every 100 applications you put in, then play that game. (1:04:35 - 1:04:50) But it's not a good game to play. In career coaching land, we like to have me and my peers, we would like our clients to be at 30% every application ratio is what we call it. So think of it like this, think of it like baseball, like a batting average. (1:04:51 - 1:05:04) Like someone who's batting 300 is really good. If you're batting 300 in the interview process, you're doing great. So you just need to set your expectations in that way. (1:05:05 - 1:05:14) That's another mistake is that people expect that they're gonna be super, super successful. I'll talk to someone and it's like, I've applied to 15 jobs and I've gotten two interviews. I suck. (1:05:15 - 1:05:36) It's like, actually you're doing pretty good because we don't have context for what success actually looks like. And I will say a little plug for us, people in our group are doing like 40 to 50% interview to application ratio. But I think our process really works and we have the data to back it up. (1:05:36 - 1:05:58) But 30% is like, you're in the all-star game if you're doing that. So that's really, really great. So predictable process to get interviews, what are those things that are gonna get you? And then the second big mistake I see people making is if the process, they choose a process and it doesn't work after four or five tries, they try something different. (1:05:58 - 1:06:11) They don't have enough reps to know if it actually works for them or not. So pick a process and instead of hopping around and the next influencer you see on TikTok or the next career coach you see on LinkedIn says something different, try it. Don't do that. (1:06:11 - 1:06:22) Do something, do a lot of it in a short period of time so you know, track your results. Oh, I got one interview out of 20 applications. Maybe this process doesn't work. (1:06:23 - 1:06:36) And instead of wiping the slate clean, pick out what did work for that one interview and then try other things and mix it in. So don't waffle around. Stick with something that works, that's proven to work. (1:06:36 - 1:06:43) I'm not the only career coach out there. There's other great people. I just happen to be one of the only ones that does this specific transition. (1:06:44 - 1:06:55) But pick a process that works and stick with it and make minor adjustments and tweaks rather than like going all over the place. Yeah. Again, there we go. (1:06:56 - 1:07:18) Clip that section of this podcast and listen to it again. Todd literally just gave away, he just told you this is what we would do. So now obviously what you don't do is, yeah, this is the way, this is a little, what you guys do I'm sure is there's some other nuances and different things you do. (1:07:18 - 1:07:42) And as you mentioned, you have an extremely, extremely good track record, a high rate of return, success with clients, et cetera. So what if someone listening wants to work with you guys? I'm gonna link the websites in the notes here so they can find you. Would that be the best way to check out what you do? Yep, yep. (1:07:43 - 1:08:04) So you can check out what we do, ministrytomarketplace.co. So ministrytomarketplace.co, ministrytomarketplace.co. Or you can connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm not on any other social media. Good for you. (1:08:05 - 1:08:20) LinkedIn, that's where I live. Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with another pastor or ministry leader who you think might benefit from this conversation. (1:08:20 - 1:08:39) And if you're looking for more tools and resources to help you preach and lead with confidence, be sure to check out sermoncentral.com slash podcast. Sermon Central is the largest online resource hub for pastors and ministry leaders. From illustrations to outlines to media, you'll find everything you need to preach and lead effectively. (1:08:40 - 1:08:52) So check out sermoncentral.com slash podcast where you'll even find a special podcast listener discount on our membership pricing. Check it out and stay tuned for our next episode.