Double Duty, Single Focus

00:02 - Speaker 1 As many of us know and have experienced, churches are changing at a rapid rate and, with some of those changes, many pastors and ministers are going back to, or maybe even experimenting for the first time, the concept of bivocational ministry, which basically is like working a job and working as a pastor at the same time. So not a groundbreakingly new concept, but one that I hear about more and more often, and in today's episode we get to talk with Manny Pollard, a pastor who has experienced bivocational ministry for many, many years of his pastoral life, and he's someone who I really think has just done it really really well Managed his family, his job, his time, the church, his studies, so many different things and he's done it so well. So I'm really excited to get to talk to him and for him to share some of the things he's learned and some of the ways he has figured out over the years you know, how to manage the calling of the church with his family, with the other responsibilities that he has. So really excited to share this one with you. 01:10 Listen in, manny. Good to see you, great to see you too. So today we're going to talk about something that is near and dear to both our hearts by vocational ministry, something that I think that you are amazing at. Amazing at, and I don't know if that's something you ever intended to be good at, but you are. You're a great pastor, you balance life in an amazing way. You have an amazing family, but would you just take a little time to share what's brought you to this current place in your life and you know what you're doing now and kind of what your experience has been in ministry. 01:50 - Speaker 2 Sure, yeah, no, thank you. And yeah, I never planned for my ministry path to go this way either, really. So you know, I started young in ministry, right in my 20s. Young in ministry right in my 20s. 02:07 My wife and I we were called to help plan a church and we knew the best way for us to go about it was to raise funds through working a other vocation, not raising support or necessarily jumping into making the church support us. Yet we had plans to do that but kind of fell into this place where God provided through different means and part of that was being part of a workforce and part of a kind of a regular job, and that's kind of how we got into it. So we planted a church, did that bivocationally for almost eight years and then moved into full-time for about four years and then took on a new assignment for about a year and a half and I did that full-time and then, about a year and a half ago or so, I actually jumped into becoming bivocational again, doing ministry a different way and kind of in a transition from figuring out what God has in store for us. 03:05 - Speaker 1 Perfect. Something you said kind of triggered something for me. But you've had a few different jobs as a bivocational minister. Do you have a sense or maybe a suggestion for those listening, of kind of what is a good job, like a good industry, to be in as a bivocational pastor, like maybe what's your experience been there? 03:27 - Speaker 2 Yeah, no, I mean, I wish we all I think we all wish that we could just jump into a full-time job that provides, you know, benefits and a good salary. But it doesn't always work that way, and so it was something that we had to decide like, hey, we didn't want to put the financial burden on the church and we're just going to trust what God wanted for us to do. And so I literally started out by working at a Starbucks, worked in the back kitchen for a local restaurant. I did that for a little while and then we kind of had a fun turn of events where I got hired to work in a software company and it's not really saying, hey, go find a specific job, but for me it was a really good fit. That really complemented my giftings, things I was passionate about, and I was able to kind of first season of working in the church bivocationally that we finally landed in that job. 04:31 And maybe a recommendation I have is you know, if someone's coming out of college or maybe coming out of a career that they find something that they enjoy doing, that actually is life-giving For me. I was really fortunate that I really got to be a part of something special. I didn't get paid handsomely or anything, but it was a really rewarding work that actually complimented me to be able to do the work that I was able to do with the church. I had the margin to really make a big investment. There was a little stint in there, too, where I actually worked for a school as a security guard. That was really fun because it did allow for some downtime for me to plan, for me to be in communication with people throughout the day, and so that really worked for me in my style. But it's really about having a job that allows you to have margin to think about the church, to think about your place in leadership and also to be in those relationships in whatever rhythm that looks like for you. 05:35 - Speaker 1 Yeah, Weren't you when you were a security guard, wasn't that? You were working as a youth minister at that time and you were being a security guard out of high school? Did you ever get to like invite kids from high school to come to youth? 05:49 - Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, um, again, I was in a really fortunate position where a few of the kids had attended our church already, uh, but I also, you know, I had some opportunities to invite kids to certain things, or I'd actually lean into those students to be the inviters. That obviously can be a sensitive place. Our my school, is pretty welcoming in us sharing suggestions of where kids could attend and participate in things like that. For me, it was a great opportunity, though, to just be a little bit more of an influence and help walk students through certain parts of life too. 06:29 - Speaker 1 Yeah, that's amazing. Could you describe some of the unique challenges? I mean, as someone who's done both. What would you say are some of the unique challenges of being a bivocational minister versus a full-time minister? And we could probably talk about that for six hours, but what comes to? 06:48 - Speaker 2 mind you really could. I think some of the bigger challenges are finding margin to do the planning and work strategically. It wasn't so much the hands-on ministry that was challenging for me, it was more of hey, when am I going to find the time to think about our attendance issues or problem-solve some of the conflicts that might be going on and tensions that we would have as we experience growth, as we experienced some new strategic challenges, and also to continue to fight for the margin to be present with my family we were a pretty young family at the time we had to fight really hard to kind of plan our weeks to even make sure that we would be available for the things that we needed to do. I think that the challenge for me personally was I wanted to say yes to everything. You know, and I think if you've ever listened to any leadership podcast, you know it's number one rule is to say hey, don't say yes to everything. It's really true, and you know we had to be very selective, you know. And so when it came to being bivocational, it was all about protecting the margin and really trying to think through hey, what's going to already overlap in our life where we can also make this a ministry opportunity as well, not having to go fabricate more issues or problems and you certainly had to. 08:22 You certainly had to go make some plans, maybe go into someone's house and doing some counseling, but you know, if you're a pastor, those things don't really upset you. 08:34 They get you excited and riled up to go counsel someone, pray over someone, work, work with them and work through their issues. I think more, more and more, though, that you can always create those opportunities, so it was really being thoughtful about that. From the full-time side, you have a lot of freedom to do that. It's your nine to five job. I think the challenge can be is that not everyone can meet you from nine to five, and so being able to um, really make yourself available outside of those working hours, be present with your family, um, also creates some different tensions as well. You're you're really trying to figure out what that looks like, and and churches most churches have done a good job at navigating, saying it's not always nine to five, but we're going to have some flexibility here, because you can't just punch out, um, but we're going to have some flexibility here, because you can't just punch out and punch in every day. 09:26 - Speaker 1 Yeah, you just made me think of something. I haven't thought about this for a while, but was this tell me if this was experience you had. But you know, when you're bivocational, you know, one of the one of the critiques or the questions people have for full time ministers is just just like literally like well, what are you doing all day? Like, what do you do? Just, you just meet with people and eat food all day. But when you're bivocational, you know, there's just that, just doesn't that doesn't seem to come up. So it seems like there's. You know, I hate to say it this way, but it almost seems like there's like a grace for a bivocational minister that people kind of implicitly have, because it's like, oh, you're working a quote-unquote job and then they see your ministry as this, like this other offering that you're offering, Whereas in full time there just doesn't seem to be that same grace, like, did you experience that ever? Or would you say that that's a thought you've had? 10:16 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I've definitely have, unfortunately, sat in leadership rooms. You know where you know elders or board members might have that attitude. And I'm pretty quick to be defensive for our full-time pastors. They're needed. I didn't necessarily want to be bivocational, I always wanted to be full-time. It just seems that I have a certain gifting and skill set that allows me to do both. 10:41 But yeah, I certainly have heard that I sense that tension. I would say for a full-time pastor, they sense that tension of like, yeah, I certainly have heard that I've sensed that tension. I would say for a full time pastor, they sense that tension of like, well, I got to go earn what I'm getting paid for. And then, yeah, there's a little bit of grace and extension of grace saying, oh, we don't want to bother you, you're working and you're giving up so much, which is helpful. I like getting that pat on the back. 11:04 But I know, I think that you certainly can walk around with both stigmas and it really is no, for me it was no excuse to continue to work hard, even if I did have a full-time job. We walked into this saying, hey, we want to be committed to the church and we're going to be committed and kind of hold this mantle, if you will, with some seriousness and also trust that God's grace is over that when we maybe overextend ourselves and maybe when we're not extending ourselves enough. We know that we'd feel that, and I have to say that I was surrounded by some really great leaders for a good period of time that were very supportive of that balance, um, and I think that's what made that special for us. 11:51 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, for when? I? Yeah In your story and other stories, when, when you think about you, know you, finally you did get to go full time and it was like, okay, amazing, I'm full time now. Can you remember, did you ever have a thought of, like, what did you miss about being bivocational? And I asked that question for the person who may be listening, who is maybe in a bivocational role, who's, or what? What were your thoughts about? Like, oh, I'm full time now and this is definitely more difficult than I thought. 12:31 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, I like the way you said that you kind of have this illusion that you know the grass is going to be greener on the other side. You know one practice that my wife and I have when we were bivocational, for about that eight-year stint of time every year, we would kind of do a kind of a heart check, an audit, if you will, of just saying, hey, do we think that God may be moving us to be in full-time? Because it was always our plan. You know, we had planted the church thinking that we'd be full-time in a year, and we were just naive and dumb enough to think that would happen. And you know, lo and behold, there was just a different path. 13:07 Uh, but when we did go full-time, you know a couple of things I didn't realize how many transitions and changes I would be going through when it came to leaving a place of work that I worked at for six and a half years um, a little bit over that, that I loved it. I was, it was a fun time. But I also knew that that time was over and we were in a new season. Um, for instance, we we planted a church and started a church. We also grew a family. We went from zero kids to four, uh, throughout that time. And so there were just some things where we were saying, hey God, like we don't think um, just some things where we were saying, hey God, like we don't think, um, that we can really live and thrive, uh, by juggling both anymore. Um, you know, we we kind of talked about, you know, we can't serve two masters and we felt like we were serving both and we weren't able to honor the work over the other. And so, um, I think, going back to that question, um, you know, we really I would admit that we thought it might be a little bit easier now that we had our full attention. And I say we you know my wife and I that we thought maybe, hey, once we get full time, like we're going to the office from eight to four o'clock, and then we knew exactly what we were doing compared to being full-time, and we were the ones that were in charge. 14:36 And so there definitely is a certain level of pressure that you feel, that that where it changes. So if, if there's someone on your listing that's saying, hey, you know, I'm thinking about going to become full-time, really thinking through, like, okay, what is, what is the role that I play. If it's to take over leadership at a church, um, you're going to experience that pressure. Um, it's probably the right pressure. It allows you to lean into, uh, trusting God with more faith, uh. 15:05 But there are certain things where sometimes I was like what did I just do? 15:09 You know, I actually had a pretty decent paycheck, you know, I wasn't having to be held accountable at a different level, which are all things I really enjoyed, but I would just say those were the things that switched really quickly. 15:24 One caveat to that that I think might play a little bit differently for others is, right after we moved to full-time in 2019, four months later, we didn't know that COVID was going to happen, and so I had spent the first three months, right after I had stepped out in the middle of the fall to be full-time, casting the vision for the next couple of years, and then we rolled into that February, march timeframe and that was all put on pause and it was quite a challenge to navigate what. What should we do next as a church? You know, what should we do as a leadership? So there's just some nuances where I think, if I would have been full-time in work, I could be like, hey, I'm sorry, I got I got work to do right now, and I could always fall back on that. And I can be like, hey, I'm sorry, I got, I got work to do right now, um, and I can always fall back on that, and so it doesn't always make. 16:16 - Speaker 1 It was the right answer, uh, but that seemed to be a good safety net for sure. Yeah, yeah, you just brought up a whole nother subject, you know, leading through COVID, it could be, it could be an entire series that that we could have. You know, a hundred different people come on and talk through, like you know what they learned and what was difficult, but but, yeah, that's an interesting time. So one of the um, I would say one of the things watching you and your wife, I've always admired so much, as you guys just have a divine capacity for ministry, like just a unbelievable and enviable capacity for ministry. So you, you have that and I think that's probably a God-given gift that you guys have. 16:49 But how do you coach or mentor others into kind of honoring their capacity and working in their capacity? And was there any like rhythms or any practices that you guys had that really helped you to stay focused and grounded? And you know, in the midst of all the things you could say yes to, as you already brought up, like there's so many, but how did you stay grounded and how did you? How did you work in that capacity? Again, you guys, you guys have an incredible I mean four young kids, jobs, ministry, friends, relationships so many different things. How did you guys kind of I don't know? How did you guys honor that capacity and then stay true to each other and your family and grounded? 17:29 - Speaker 2 Yeah, um, well, we definitely had a lot of trial and error in there, you know, and I appreciate that. I definitely would say, yeah, that was God's grace over us. And you know, I was reminded over time, starting to observe other pastors, friends of ours, people that were co-laborers with us, that we realized I don't think that they either have the same capacity or just, you know, may have a different approach. I mean, that's not wrong. I think that was honestly something I had to wrestle with not taking offense to that someone else wouldn't have as much margin or devote as much time to something and not be offended by that. You know, I think you know, my wife Kim and I took a lot of time to understand, kind of, who we were. We took a lot of personality tests. 18:21 You know, we understood who we were through the Enneagram we took. We understood that we're. You know, I'm a flaming extrovert, you know. And then there are other pastors I work alongside that were introverted, that needed to fill their tank in different ways, and so we just kind of really need to understand what makes us tick and allow us to operate in those spaces. You know, we set a goal to try to reach out to every family in our church. Every year We'd either host them individually or within a group of people. But we also knew that lined up with life right. So that's where we were able to really maximize that, because that's how we knew we operated. We wanted to sit down across the table from almost anybody and everybody and that allowed us to really thrive. 19:11 You know, there were certain things that we tried that just really didn't make sense. We weren't going to spend a lot of time in the church building to do ministry. It kind of felt suffocating At times. We actually didn't even have a building for the majority of it. But part of that approach was, I think, more of just understanding. You know who we were. You know, and I will never forget the day his name was Johnny and he was the elder on our team and we had dinner with them and we probably had canceled dinner with them four or five times and they finally were able to kind of get everything in order. 19:47 And admittedly, there was somewhat of this level of shame or, you know, like kind of saying, man, we just we can't hang with the level that you guys are doing. That wasn't a brag on us, he really was saying how do you do that? And it was then that I discovered that I think every pastor, every person just has a different size plate. You know, everyone says my plate's too full. And you know, my buddy, johnny, he just he had a different size plate and he needed to be okay with that. You know, he had other responsibilities. It didn't mean that he wasn't contributing to the church, he contributed his gifts in totally different ways. And you know, I would say that one of my gifts was I just had a bigger capacity understanding the size of the plate that I had. And I would be lying to you if I didn't say like, well, I felt like mine was just this huge, massive tray that you take out. 20:41 - Speaker 1 And. I would say you do have a platter size plate, sure. 20:44 - Speaker 2 Yeah, the platter, and. But I also would say, you know, I ask god's like is that right, is that okay, you know, is you know through prayer and discernment and really seek counsel? Uh, you know, and, johnny, you know, really would also offer some things where I challenged him, say, do you really think your plate is this small? And it's okay if it is, but do you think it's just that, or are there things that you need to adjust, to adjust to this kind of this bivocational life that he was trying to jump in as well, because he had a certain level of authority, influence and he felt the pressure of that. So once he saw that kind of analogy, if you will illustration, I think it gave him an idea of like, okay, I'm comfortable with my plate going from a small kiddie plate to maybe just a medium-sized dinner plate that can actually handle certain things within that ministry scope and for us that's kind of the way we looked at it. 21:49 - Speaker 1 So that's a really helpful picture, I think, for people is this idea of a plate because that's something we can all kind of identify with. And you know, sometimes you're at Thanksgiving and you fill your plate too full and then you're paying for it. You're like, oh no, I can't do that much stuffing. What was I thinking? But it's similar in a similar way, you know, with our time, with our energy and with our, our family and our ministries and our obligations. Like you know, that's a really helpful image and I hope that people will consider that image. You know the image of a plate and and, like you said, to to honestly look at it and to also be okay with you know there are just seasons where you have less room on that plate to do the things you're doing. 22:29 You could have you know, in some of the situations I'm thinking of, you could have you know what happens if a family member becomes extremely ill. Well, that impacts your ability to serve others. What happens if you know so many different things? What happens if a local pastor here had his house flood that I know Like he's got to take care of that. You can't just keep going. So then you have to look at that plate and so that's a really I don't know. That's a really good image to kind of what you're sharing there. 22:58 - Speaker 2 Sure, yeah, yeah. And I would just say you know, when you think about what goes on your plate, you know you think about the priorities that you have If you're working in ministry as a single person. There are plenty more other priorities that come up, and that's a good thing, and for us, it was our children. They were a priority, but we also knew that they were part of this platter, if you will, and we said, hey, you're going to take up this much space and if it needs to become bigger, we're good with that, but we're going to trust that we have room for more. And yeah, like you said, there are times where we tested the capacity of that and we say, yeah, I'm not doing that again. Or next time we go around this way, I'm going to approach it a little bit different. That's right. 23:43 - Speaker 1 So, yeah, that's so true. So, switching gears just a tiny bit. I'm sure you have some of these conversations too, but I've just been hearing so many people talk about shrinking church budgets. So church budgets are shrinking and what that's doing is that's putting pressure on the models that we've had for a long time, which I think right, wrong or indifferent. I think it's probably a good thing, personally, that we question what we're doing and consider, we know, what God has. 24:11 But, with that said, there's a lot of people who would say and I've heard a lot of people talk about that we are moving back to a bivocational model, like back to a tent-making model, if you will, where the traditional idea of a full-time pastoral position, those are becoming less and less and people are having to consider how to make this model work. So when I say that to you, not only what are your thoughts about that, but also how would you encourage people? You've already brought up some good points margin capacity, different ways to think about being bivocational, different ways to think about being bivocational. But if, if we really are truly moving back to this model, then what's like? What are some good, encouraging thoughts about the model? And you know what, what are the positives of being bivocational? So I just asked you a ton of things. But what are you? What are your thoughts? 25:04 - Speaker 2 yeah, I mean, uh, well, one. Through this time, you know, over 20 years of ministry, I've just learned that there are different expressions and philosophies and approaches to how the local church operates, and that's by God's design, you know, and there are, you know, there's a saying, you know different strokes for different folks. You're going to find some that feel it needs to be healthily funded and going to go above and beyond in making sure that resources are there, and that is awesome. But for some you know expressions of the church they're not going to get there and that's not to, you know, say anything bad about that. Quite honestly, the church that we had come from. We looked at budgeting quite a bit different and there are some things where I say, hey, you know, I wish we would have invested in more staff to help support the mission and help push that forward, which really just has to do with the Great Commission. How are we going to, you know, go and make disciples through all nations? Right, and we did that, but we just did it a little bit differently with a little different approach. 26:17 I get excited for that bivocational model only because it means that more pastors are going to be out there pastoring in the authority in the name of Jesus. One thing I've been thinking about recently is you know, we have the church that I am at currently as a volunteer. We have amazing volunteers that man just knock my socks off when it comes to their capacity, when it comes to their willingness. And you know they operate in a way as a bivocational leader. You know they operate in a way as a bivocational leader. The one caveat to that is they're not really released to go do all those kingdom things sometimes, and so it gets me excited when someone may be stepping up to the challenge to say you know, I know that I'm called to go and carry that authority a little bit more, and you and I would just encourage or say that if you feel like you're being drawn in that direction, it may not be forever. 27:21 There are plenty of pastors I know that did this for a time and they handed off their ministry because they planted something or that. They handed off where they got to a certain point. That is all part of the bivocational model. I went into it thinking that I would be part of the church we were at for life and actually that's not what happened. That was a little confusing but at the same time. A lot of good things happened through that, a lot of kingdom stories, exciting things, life change happened for the better and I know that was part of God's plan. 27:59 And so I think that, as we look at kind of the landscape of the local church across America, yes, you're going to see more of a micro-church bivocational approach, which you know has got to be a move of God, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he's not moving in these larger churches or more traditional models. I just think that there's more accessibility and more innovation that's happening that allows for men and women to go and carry out their calling. You know, as it says in Ephesians 4, 11, 12, you know, equipping the saints for the work of the ministry right, so that we can continue to equip more people. We're all in a way ministering, but it's really taking that place of the authority that God has placed on us to do his kingdom work, so place of the authority that God has placed on us to do his kingdom work. 28:54 - Speaker 1 So, yeah, there you go, we talk. I've talked to several people, even here through the podcast and other places, just about their calling. You know shifting, and sometimes it's full-time, sometimes it's in the marketplace, sometimes it's, you know, but that calling remains the same right, like you were gifted as a pastor and how have you seen, you know, even when you're working at Starbucks, like, how did that play out for you? Did you find yourself still even becoming shepherdly to around the people you were working side by side with? Like, how have you experienced that? 29:27 - Speaker 2 Like how have you experienced that? Yeah, no, I mean absolutely Saw it as a cool opportunity to kind of double dip into one saying this job is providing a means for us to continue to carry out the church, our responsibility to the church, but also to kind of be in places where people that are unreached were. You know, I've worked with a lot of coworkers over my time. They didn't understand what the Bible was. They definitely didn't respond great when they heard that I was a pastor at a church. But being able to be present for years on end for part of that time definitely allowed me to have the rapport. You know that I think they were hoping to see, or even if I didn't know it, you know, did see over time. You know, and and again, we're all called um to be that light and to be that hope, no matter where we are in those settings. And so there there are some advantages as well. 30:26 I think that there are some ways that you can actually put too much pressure on yourself as a pastor to say, well, I'm here, I must go change these lives too. I think it's more about just being genuine, about who you are in these spaces, you know, also making sure that you don't over-prioritize the things at this workplace that's helping provide for you to, you know, carry out that calling as a bivocational pastor, um, but I do think they can play hand in hand. I just would say it's for the kind of the slow game. If you will, uh, with those that you, you, you know, co-labor with and and work, um, then necessarily say, hey, you're supposed to come with me to church and the next day they're you, they're giving their life to Jesus. I just don't think it works that way, nor does it have to be like that. More about being the presence of God. Because you are a Christian, you are living a holy life. So people can see that in everyday life, everyday work. 31:30 - Speaker 1 What's your? Have you thought about this ever? What would be your bivocational dream job? Oh man. 31:36 - Speaker 2 Well, you know, I've, I definitely have thought about it. It sounds kind of lame, but I had an amazing job. I worked as a software sales guy for a company that was a faith-based organization, but it was for profit values, um, in certain priorities that I have, so making sure that, you know, you're able to be present there for your family, um able to be present, uh, for things outside of just the nine to five clocking in, clocking out, um, I am actually right now in kind of a stint of coaching, um, and I would say that it has really um scratched and itch that I didn't even know I had, and so that there's got to be something in line with with coaching and executive leadership, just helping people, develop people, because you're having conversations with people day in and day out and having a little fun, you know, and so I'd say that there it's got to be in that realm of just interaction with, with. But being a coach has been an amazing honor and privilege. I do that from a volunteer standpoint, but it's been a pretty hefty volunteer standpoint. 32:55 - Speaker 1 And to clarify I think clarify what kind of coach you are. 33:01 - Speaker 2 I hope, coach a baseball team in Division III collegiate level and you know I basically am the assistant coach but oversee operations and player development. So anything on or off the field when it comes to leadership development or player development and how they're doing as an athlete, that's my role and responsibility to make sure that they are being supported in any way possible to excel and thrive in that baseball environment and part of that program. 33:31 - Speaker 1 What's so funny and beautiful about what you're doing is, I mean, I think a lot of people would say that being a pastor is very similar to coaching in some ways. And here you are saying that you're you know, you're double dipping, or a bivocational role as a baseball coach really scratches the itch as a gifted pastor, and I think there's something to that. Maybe we overcomplicate so much of this stuff in our life and maybe it is just like going like, oh, what jobs look like pastor work, and maybe I should do that. Being a, a teacher, being a coach, being, um, a financial advisor there's so many different things you could do. 34:12 - Speaker 2 Like maybe we're just thinking too hard and like out, maybe we're overthinking these, these things, and yeah, I don't know, it's just kind of funny yeah, well, and to go back to kind of, you know, the having margin, I think, just having a full, if you work full-time or part-time, there are just parameters that are created for you where you, you know, if you only have a chunk of two hours a day to think freely um, and to be praying and to be ministering, um with people in in what's the saying, the church context, you do get like a lot done. You, just you, you have to. You, you don't really think about like well, I'll just get at it, and that's probably more my personality. There's some procrastinator in me, um, you know, I'm not going to be put myself in too much trouble, but I think it's just more of hey, you know, if I can put it off the next day, I might, you know. 35:04 And so I think there's some advantage when you have your other vocation has forced you to have a little bit of structure, especially if you have certain needs outside of work and within your home or other priorities. You know, and that helped us, you know, at the church that we were at for 12 years, was that all the leadership had, you know, full-time jobs, and some of them had more flexibility than others and we didn't compare each other's plates to each other. We just said, hey, you know my plate's not as full. Let me jump in with you there. Hey, your plate is a little bit smaller. Right now it seems like you're a little exhausted. Like, let me help you. So that really helped us in that. 35:46 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, having good, honest, you know communication with others on the team. So last couple of questions for you, the first one being, um, again going back to your relationship with your wife and your family structure. Um, you guys again super enviable, very admirable how you guys work together. What, how important do you think that that spouse relationship is, as you minister and you know? Obviously having common goals, common thinking, common, you know, drivers is obviously important. But is there any, any advice you could give or any encouragement you could give to others who are thinking that through, and maybe some conversations they could have with their spouse about these things that could help save them some heartache or some you know future dilemmas, if you will. 36:32 - Speaker 2 Yeah, oh, man, absolutely. One point of encouragement is, you know, not every marriage, every pastor and their wife or spouse, not every relationship and how they execute ministry, is going to look the same, you know, and that's a good thing. You know, for instance, my wife is a workhorse and so I was just fortunate to have her be the one that took on certain tasks that I didn't want to do or I just knew she would do better. You know, and that's not always the case. I would say more that if you feel the call to be in ministry and your spouse gives you the okay and understands what they're signing up for, is the most important thing Taking time to be in prayer with you, prayer together, in a certain level of partnership. Ours was a little bit more engaged, a little bit more of a commitment from both of us, but I don't know if it has to be that way. And, for instance, you know, my wife Kim has now taken a different seat in how she carries out ministry. She has more of a marketplace ministry from her job, um, and also she volunteer coaches at the college that I work at as well and, um, you know we just support each other in that understanding that it comes at a cost, uh, but just good communication, you know. So a few things that you could do is, um, you know, have a weekly conversation, have coffee, you know, at your house or, if time allows, go out for a little bit and be intentional in that time, not just to get lovey-dovey, although that's super necessary. It's more of like, hey, let's, let's just talk and make sure we're on the same page. You know, I got, I have this elder meeting that's coming up. It's going to be a doozy, it's going to be a long one. Just so you know. Like that, those communication points help. 38:25 But it doesn't help if you're getting a text message, you know, at nine o'clock at night and be like hey, when do you think you're going to be done. You know that can create a unnecessary tension, um, so kind of pouring out some expectation, uh, can be helpful. But I, you know, we, we did. We had some rocky times, um, as we had kids and we're kind of transitioning new seasons of life. I'll never forget one time when I found her out on a date, out of nowhere. She just says hey, I just feel like you're prioritizing this church, um, over, you know, our family, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. Um, that was that kind of came out of left field for me. My assignment was a little offended, but it she me, my assignment was a little offended, but she wasn't wrong, and it wasn't so much that it was too far gone, she was just expressing yeah, this is a concern that I have, that you're going to keep saying yes to these things and we're going to be regretting it, and so it really is important to be in some communication. 39:21 Also, challenge, though it doesn't mean that you put things by the wayside. There are challenges, there are hard things that you have to do as a pastor, as a family that does call for some sacrifice, and that's where you really lean into God's grace and to you know things that might be overwhelming, that you know it's going to be sufficient for you in that time, and you have to lead that as a leader of your household and stand by that. There are always seasons in the church where it kind of is all hands on deck, and we had a few of those in our lives through pastoral transitions and changes and we just knew that, hey, we can do this. And we'd always say, like, how long are we going to put up with this and we would say we can handle this for a couple more months, don't you think? And we just have that dialogue to say, okay, well, in a couple months. We know that this needs to change and God was always faithful to usually finish it before that, but we always just kind of you know over delivering what that looked like and that really helped us. 40:28 And again, we worked really hard on our marriage, sought counsel almost monthly, went on dates as often as we could. We were fortunate enough to have grandparents in the area at the time. So that's another thing too. You got to think through what kind of support system do we have If we? You got to think through. You know, what kind of support system do we have? You know, if we're going into ministry in a new place, what does that look like? Again, nothing you can't overcome, but something to really think about, to think through. Hey, if we're moving to a brand new community and we don't really have that support system, what does that look like for us? And who's going to really have to take one for the team when someone's at a meeting overnight, um, or something like that? 41:11 so those were the conversations that were had, and they're had often, uh, but we're making sure we're good on the same page and, uh, that was the other thing I loved about my leadership team. There was a time where I just could not make it to the meeting. Um, I had called one of our elders who was more kind of the head of our board we didn't really have that title but just said hey, man, I really don't think I can make it tonight. There's just a lot going on and had their full support and they understood. You know, we just trust each other a lot. We had a high level of trust that we weren't going to skip out on something so I can go watch a game or something it was, it was going to be meaningful and that was really helpful too. 41:49 - Speaker 1 Yeah, you said something that I think is a good word is that if you're married, it would never I don't even know how to say this but if you're married, it's not like God's going to call one of you to ministry. It's a we thing, like we're called to ministry. And if you can't, it's just so impossible to do. If one of you is operating like, oh no, I'm the called one and the other spouse, my partner, is not, that just doesn't work and you'd probably agree seeing people try to do do that. It just doesn't work that way. And and you know that goes back to the plate analogy. You got to be, you got to be really honest about what your familial, what your family plate can accommodate. So, which is which can be hard, it can be hard to say, hard to admit that. You know, yeah, I, I don't think, I don't think my plate can accommodate this right now, and that kind of has to be okay. 42:49 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, and God is kind. You know, there are certain things that kind of that naturally grow the way you think. When your kids grow up, you start to grow up and learn too. There are certain things that you know fall by the wayside and new problems arise that you don't really know, and so seeking wisdom from other, more experienced, veteran pastors is never a bad thing either. So, you know, if you, you know, are able to surround yourself with men and women, pastors that can really support you and this journey, maybe even giving insight or even just kind of a a place where you can share some of those tensions that they want to lighten the load. You know, I've never had a pastor that's come to me share a burden that's been on their heart, and I've never been like dude, get away from me. No, I've been like dude, let me know how I can help you. Let's brainstorm this out together, you know, and it's been a beautiful thing and I'm thankful for that I've been able to get that support as well. 43:55 - Speaker 1 Yep, yep, so good. Well, as we wrap up, I'm just curious. So again, this is my opinion of you, but I think you've done bivocational work so well. You know you have such good rhythms. You have such good rhythms. I think you're an incredibly gifted pastor. But, as others may be considering being bivocational, I'm curious if you could just leave us with some encouragement. If I was coming to you and I was saying, manny, I am thinking about being a bivocational minister Never done it before, but I'm considering it you know what would, how would you encourage me or what would you say? What would you tell me to be thinking about and considering? 44:33 - Speaker 2 Yeah, no, I mean, I think I would never discourage anyone that feels that press on their heart, um, to not keep digging into it, um, but I would also encourage them and maybe challenge them to to really make sure, um, and not to put fear in them, but to just say you know, you want to be able to walk away, um, and know that God said you know well done, good and faithful servant, and um. It's not about you know the scorecard or um, you know elevated, uh, attendance, but it's more saying are you going to be able to go in there and shepherd and care for people the way that you know God is calling you to? And if you can't, maybe just asking well, why can't I do that? And it's not a bad thing. But being ready for a road of challenge and just a certain level of commitment, and this is a lower scripture how pastors will be rewarded with a double portion. Part of it is because that call is a pretty weighty one, and so I would encourage them to say well, what do your good friends think? Is there someone in your life that you admire, that you respect their opinion? What does someone like your wife think about this, and what level of commitment are they willing to put into it? Do you have a vision of what that looks like for you? I mean, obviously I entered in through a church planting experience, but there are plenty of other opportunities where you know, bible education, pastors are, you know, transitioning and taking someone else's place or taking on different roles, and so those all can apply by saying what level of commitment am I able to give to this? And am I going to be able to look at the Lord and say, yeah, I know, I know this is what he called me to, you know, and for me it's. 46:33 There is a certain level of mystery just saying like I don't know why I get so pumped up thinking about the church. I mean, I've had my bumps and bruises in ministry over the last two decades. I love Jesus' church, I love the local church and I would pray the same for them. I would say I hope that you can walk out of that church better than you did when you came in. And that can be scary for people sometimes because they hear a bunch of war stories and they exist. Don't ignore those either. But if God is with you, he's going to continue to be. 47:12 I would also encourage them to get into a network of pastors and friends as soon as they can, Because it is a lonely road. It can be You're not as alone as much as you think but it can feel lonely because when you jump into ministry, no matter bivocationally or full-time, there's just a certain level of loneliness that creeps in, and sometimes that's in your own mind, sometimes that's the reality, but sometimes you know it's really saying you know who, who's the one that sent you? Um, cause, if it's a church planning organization that sent you and it wasn't Jesus through that plant, that church planning organization, then, um, we're in trouble, right? So those are the questions I'd have is saying, like, who did you hear that from and and why do you think that's important? 48:03 - Speaker 1 Yeah, that's so good, so good. And if someone's listening, where are you guys attending now? 48:08 - Speaker 2 Sure, Well, we attend Prairie Lakes Church at one of their campuses. They're out of Cedar Falls, Iowa, and so we attend there, and you know we love to faithfully serve and serve in lots of different capacities, along with some of the other marketplace ministries that we're in right now, hoping to reach more people. But that's where we're at. That's cool. 48:34 - Speaker 1 Yeah, so you heard it. If you are in Iowa and you happen to be at Prairie Lakes, look up Manny and his wife. They're amazing people and if you're thinking about being vocational, thanks for listening. And Manny and I would agree. Man, what an amazing call and journey, so pray that you'd be blessed and you know wherever the journey takes you. Right, it's a, it's a wild one when you, when you get in line with what God's doing. 48:56 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so thank you so much. 48:56 - Speaker 1 Manny Appreciate you. 48:58 - Speaker 2 Yeah, well, thank you, matt. 49:00 - Speaker 1 All right. Talk to you soon. Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with another pastor or ministry leader who you think might benefit from this conversation. And if you're looking for more tools and resources to help you preach and lead with confidence, be sure to check out sermoncentralcom slash podcast. Sermon Central is the largest online resource hub for pastors and ministry leaders. 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