Faith, Strategy, and Stewardship: The Executive Pastor’s Calling

00:02 - Speaker 1 So what exactly is an executive pastor? What do they do and how do you get into this type of role? Well, today I've got a treat for you, because we get to talk with Pastor Jason McMullen, who's an executive pastor down in Orlando, florida, and he's going to share with us how he got into the role, some advice for others looking to get into the role and what it really is all about. Looking to get into the role and what it really is all about. So listen in. I'm excited to share this one with you as we unpack what it really looks like to serve in one of the most pivotal yet often misunderstood roles in the church. Let's go, pastor Jason McMullum. Good to see you from Florida. Is that right? Are we talking Orlando? 00:49 - Speaker 2 Yeah, that's right. Central Florida, where we get hurricanes and sunshine, so that's where we make our home. 00:57 - Speaker 1 You get the full gamuts. 00:59 - Speaker 2 We do. 01:00 - Speaker 1 I'm really excited to have you here today. You were kind of. You know. I got to meet you in a roundabout way through a mutual friend of ours who just had nothing but amazing things to say about you. I paid him. You and I were joking that when we first talked we should have been recording that whole first conversation, because we ended up covering some amazing topics and getting through some good things. So I'm hoping today that, as we discuss the role of an executive pastor and becoming an executive pastor, I'm just so excited because I know you've got a lot of good nuggets, a lot of good heart and wisdom to share with people about that. So, before we get going too far, would you be able to just share a little bit about your journey and how you got into the role you have now and what that looks like? 01:49 - Speaker 2 Yeah, sure, I'm so glad to be here, Matt, and, as you said, it was great when we first connected and felt like talking to an old friend. So this is great and glad to serve your audience, your platform, those that look to you for content that helps inspire and mobilize them. So this is great. But relative to my journey into the pastorate, I'd actually say it started when I was a kid, and the reason I say that is because my grandmother was the matriarch of our family and she kept all of her grandkids for my aunts and uncles. At that time there wasn't a lot of, you know, professional daycare, so she was the daycare, but in that daycare, or makeshift daycare, we would always play church and I was always a pastor and I was always preaching and I was always mobilizing the gang to do their part. So that typically consisted of me being in a bathrobe with a Bible and them sitting on the stairs, you know, heeding my every command. So I just say that, to say that long before I ever, you know, got the title, I think God gave me the heart because I had a passion for the Word of God and the things of God at a young age and that carried forward even into my adult years. And so, as I would graduate school, meet my bride, we've been married 21 years. We've got 10 kids, seven girls, three boys yes, you heard that right. So we've got a lot to manage. Bored is not a thing in our house. I always tell people I don't remember the last time I even used the word bored or said I am bored because it's just not possible with all that going on. 03:42 But after college graduated in business, went into business, went into banking, but always stayed tethered to the church. And so, even in banking, I ended up in the banking business doing commercial finance. And, lo and behold, the guy who bought the bank that I was working in would want to start a faith-based banking division, and so I helped to kind of start that sponsor that galvanize that we were lending money to churches literally all over the country. And then from there I got into publishing. And again, what am I doing? Assisting the church? And then I would do some amazing things in publishing over 10 years publishing some New York Times bestsellers, had the privilege of putting out a Bible translation, and then I also became an elder at another church and that's when kind of my formalization as it relates to the pastorate began and then would spend some time there serving that community that great community, but the Lord would lead us on my family and I a great community, but the Lord would lead us on my family and I. And we took the plunge to help a new church that was established by an old friend who is like a brother to me. I've known him for 30 years, so when I talk about being in the bathrobe as a kid, not too far after trading my bathrobes in for collared shirts and things of that nature and Jordans, I met William McDowell, who is our lead pastor at Deeper Fellowship Church, and the Lord would speak to us as teenagers about the work that we are actually now doing. And so, literally for the last decade or so, we have been literally living the dream and living out a vision that God seeded into us, individually as kids and then collectively as teenagers. And so he's a lead pastor, I'm the executive pastor and I think, relative to my maturation into that, it became kind of a collision of my heart for the Lord and my mind for business heart for the Lord and my mind for business. 05:45 When you think about the executive pastor role, I liken it to the modern-day Stephen. If you look back in the Scriptures in Acts, the church is growing and anytime something's growing, problems arise, right. So you can't have growth and not have complexity, and so complexity ensues. And so you see in the book of Acts, literally the church is growing, but problems start to arise relative to how they were to conduct the affairs of the church. 06:15 And the Bible makes a statement about who Stephen was, and the Bible says that Stephen was a man full of faith and he also did signs, wonders and miracles. So he had the same bend or gift mix as Peter, james and John those that we know would kind of lead the church ministerially and obviously Paul. But he chose to take a role administratively to help the church grow. And so in my mind, really the executive pastor is a pastor first, you know, with similar gift mix, similar heart as it relates to being for the church, about the church. But who takes on the responsibility of making sure that complexity doesn't kill the move of God, by trying to bring clarity where confusion often tries to creep in, and that's largely around not the ministry but the organization. And so I've been sitting in that seat for now some 10 years and that's led to some wonderful work being done, and I'm just delighted that God would use me. He doesn't need me, and we've been seeing some cool things ever since. 07:28 - Speaker 1 Pete man, I love how you described the executive pastor. You know pastor first and even as you described, like, if you look at Steve and you look at that life, he had any or all of the giftings you would expect a minister to have, but he stepped into a specific, like a very specified role, a very specified calling, which I think you described as administratively. Yeah, and going back to when you and I first talked, you said some amazing things. I thought about how you view the executive pastor role and the relationship to the lead pastor and that's your friend. What's his name? Again, William. 08:15 - Speaker 2 William McDowell. 08:17 - Speaker 1 Okay, so your relationship with William, who you know, come to find out, you've known so long, you know come to find out, you've known, you've known so long. It's like if you play pickup basketball with someone, long enough, you just know where they're going to be on the court at any given time? 08:31 Sure, so you and William maybe have that, that camaraderie, you have that sense of one another. So, yeah, so how do you? You know the, the pathways into the pathways into this specific role, yeah, Um, yours was multifaceted, you know. Sure, Do you, do you get the sense that that all of those different things you have done have helped? Or it would you know, would there have been something you could have done that maybe thought would have helped more? Like? What is your thoughts been on that as you reflect backwards? 09:05 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I, I think that's a great question. You know, as I reflect back, I know for me personally, Matt, everything that unfolded in my journey up until now prepared me for where I am. And that's not to say that more things could have been added on, you know, I'm sure there probably could have been added on, you know, sure, there probably could have been other experiences that I, you know, could have taken and things of that nature. But from what I typically find, um, among other executive pastors, most of us did not sit down and say I want to be that, you know, um, it's not. I don't find, you know, among you know, the guys that I know that they sat down and said, man, when I grew up, I want to be an executive pastor. 09:53 Typically, what I find is it's guys who have a heart for the Lord, a heart for his church and a mind for business, and they stumble upon, you know, in their own community or other communities, a need, and so what you typically end up seeing is God, whose hand is in everything right, an orchestration that they probably weren't aware of, that God, in his own way, was shaping and forming them for this role. 10:26 And that's not to say that there are not other wonderful things to do, but at the end of the day, to work in God's house and contribute to God's family has value that's not quantifiable, has value that's, you know, not quantifiable. And so I think, for me specifically, whether it was banking or publishing which led to marketing, and you know these things. And then you know, even in the, you know, ngo space, doing work there in donor relation, donor relation management, you know all of the things that you know I've been able to, you know kind of touch. You know the greatest recipient, you know of those experiences, you know largely has been the church. And so I think, at the end of the day, you know, for those of us who are called to this space, you may not have a formal pathway, but if you've got a heavenly calling, then God forms you for what he's fashioned for you, yes, and you brought up a term, you said the word that through this process of being fashion informed that you were always tethered to the church. 11:39 - Speaker 1 So I'm curious what that means. When you say it, I mean I have an idea, but I'm curious what that means and how that worked out in function for you, because I think you're spot on. I also don't meet people that go oh, I want to be an executive pastor. They're not signing up for that role necessarily. But again, what about the person like you or others who has felt the calling? But then you end up in these different formative seasons. So so, yeah, so how do you stay tethered and what does? 12:16 being tethered mean to you. 12:18 - Speaker 2 Yeah, tethered for me means, at the end of the day, you have a heart for the Lord and have a heart for what he has a heart for, and I think the gifts that you bring, you know, become the paintbrushes, if you will, to paint on that canvas. And so when I talk about being tethered to the church, from a very young age, you know, up until now, you know I've always had, you know, sometimes it's been louder, you know, sometimes a bit soft, but this, you know unquenchable desire to utilize my gifts for the forward advancement of God's church. And so sometimes that's, you know, like right now I haven't. Our lead pastor was joking in front of the whole church, mind you, on Sunday we have two services, so I haven't really been in service for about four weeks, and the reason is I've been teaching what we call our big arrows, which is our 12 to 14 year olds. On Sunday I've been walking them through the doctrine of sin, right now, and I was so excited to do this. 13:23 And so my wife runs our kids ministry and so sometimes I get to, you know, assist, you know who, who, who more qualified to run a kids ministry than a mom of 10 that knows kind of how to, you know, lead, administer, talk to parents, you know, shepherd them and all that. She does an amazing, amazing job. But I get the privilege, you know, sometimes of serving in that space and so, um, I, I came inside our first service and and, and you know, sat in my normal seat and he goes. Pastor Jason is so good to see you. You know I haven't and he goes. 13:56 I was joking with him because I haven't seen him, you know, for weeks. Um, and so you know the applause ensued and all of that, and he was like, but the reason I haven't seen him is because he's been serving, you know, our older kids, you know over the last number of weeks. And the reason I bring that up is you know different seasons of your life. Your contribution might look different, but when I talk about being tethered to the church, it is that you have a desire, sometimes small, but sometimes it's big, like you want to do things at the executive level, but sometimes it's teaching. You know kids in the class, but there's just this desire to contribute your gift mix for the forward advancement of God's church and his people. 14:38 - Speaker 1 Beautifully said, beautifully said, and there's nothing like being teased from the pulpit. 14:41 - Speaker 2 Yeah, man, listen, that goes back to that 30 year relationship that you know. Um, just comes out, you know, and he can just, you know, trash, talk me literally. 14:53 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, I, I think it's beautiful man, I think it's beautiful to have that relationship with each other, and I bet you guys have a lot of fun and we do, we do and, um, you know, probably the the level of trust that you have between one another has got to just be, I mean, what a gift right, absolutely. 15:12 - Speaker 2 But I think you know, sometimes people can hear that and go man, am I at a deficiency? Because I don't have that history. Sure Right, no-transcript the way I talk, and you don't get overwhelmed by it, you're just ready to go. And that's also because I knew the implications of what he was saying. I knew the scale already, without him even qualifying what he was talking about. So when he said I want to do this, I knew exactly what the gradient was. I knew exactly what level we were talking about. You know why? Because there's that relationship. But some people may not have that with their lead pastor. Go, you know well, how do I get that? You know. 16:15 The thing that's interesting in my mind about the Spirit of God is that you know when the Spirit was poured out after Pentecost. The Holy Spirit indwells us all and I think what you don't have in history you do have in essence. In other words, we have the same Spirit that indwells us and what we know about the Bible God is no respecter of persons and he speaks to His people. And I would just say that if you don't have a 30-year relationship with your lead pastor, where can you gain that continuity of synchronization and vision and being aligned man on your knees, praying, because God is not trying to hide His heart for His people. He wants to put that on display and have you both walking in clarity. Does that mean we'll always see the same thing? No, but we can anticipate where we're going because we have the same Holy Spirit. 17:07 So, even if you don't have again that 30-year relationship or that 20-year relationship, if you have the same Spirit and you both are seeking the Lord which is again why I go back to Stephen. Right, what was his occupation before? He was kind of functioning as an executive man. He was doing miracles, signs, wonders, and he was in ministry alongside the others the same hunger, the same passion, you know and was seeing the same results. He just had a gift mix and a bend and saw a need and said, hey, I'm going to occupy this space, right, because I see a need. But he had the same tenacity, he had the same disposition, he had the same fire, he had the same passion. He just saw a need and began to appropriate it differently. And so my point is, if you don't have that history, but you both are leaning into the spirit, you can hear the same thing and move at the same pace. 18:00 - Speaker 1 There you go. 18:01 I actually have a, yeah, super quick story about that. We were trying speaking of the spirit and you know, being united, we were trying to discern. We were taking on a new missions partnership. Basically, where do we form a partnership? And the group we showed up never met this group before ever, and I was our team. We were praying through Psalm 133. So to Psalm on unity. It's beautiful. We were praying through that. That's what we were believing Unity, unity. We show up and I kid you not, but we show up and what do you think? The group that we eventually chose to partner with, that lead pastor, started preaching Psalm 133 to us and you just go like, yeah, I trust you, Lord, I trust that you're working here and I trust that you've got a plan here and of the millions of options in the whole Bible that someone could put out and speak to right. 19:10 So, I totally agree with you. I think that's the power. So that's the power. Quick question for you before we get into, like, the role of the executive pastor. Yes, sir, so let's, someone is struggling with this feeling of like kind of what we're talking about. I feel called to ministry, but I'm also more, maybe, like, executively gifted. Let's just say, how do you, what would you say to that person? How do they discern that calling? How do they, you know, figure out if they want to be those, that few person or that unique person that says I actually want to be an executive pastor? Like, how do what would you look for? 19:55 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I think, first and foremost, you know, somebody is starting with the impetus right, the desire or just the thought of man. I might want to use, you know, my administrative gifts fully or partially, because, let's not kid ourselves, a lot of leaders are bivocational, so we're not talking necessarily that. You know, it's just a 40 hour a week thing. You know where you're drawing a single paycheck. You know, for some guys, you know the mix of it is this is where they draw all of their you know livelihood. Some, some guys, it's partial, some it's I'm working a job, but I want to, you know, sow my time, you know, like this for the church. But the point is they all have a desire to want to do that and so I think, you know, if you have a desire for that, I would first say write it down. You know what does that look like? You know, get clarity. You know, um, and obviously we see principles of this in scriptures relative to vision and writing down vision and making it plain, um, but I would just say write it down. Then I would say submit it to the Lord, you know, and submit it to prayer. From there, I would say submit it to your leader, you know, go to that person or go to persons. Here's a wonderful thing about the body of Christ it's exactly that. It's the body of Christ. It's not an individual, it's a family, and you don't know yourself by yourself. You know yourself in the context of community and so a lot of times what people are able to do, other brothers and sisters are able to do, is gather around you and confirm what God is leading you to do and I think from there, the confirmation typically of that in your circle of brothers and sisters gives birth to opportunity, because once you give voice to it now somebody can say man, yeah, that's right on. And we need that Because typically, going back to even the example around, you know you were given about the. 21:53 You know you guys were looking at Psalm 133, you show up. You know on the mission field and the pastors you know preaching out of that. You know, and what I'm leaning into relative to, if you don't have history, you can have the same continuity if you're seeking the spirit in the same way. That way you know when you start in prayer and you bring it before, you know people that you trust. I almost guarantee you. 22:20 I don't have scientific evidence for this, I can't prove it empirically, but what I will say is, largely, if you have that desire because we're in a family and God's doing something for the family, not just for you somebody else is probably looking for the very thing that you have a heart for. And because that desire typically is connected to a need, right, there's a need there and when you give voice to it, somebody can confirm it and typically opportunity opens up. And it may not look exactly the way that you envisioned it at first, but it can be a glorious beginning of God beginning to mobilize you and deploy you in the way that he begins to show you. 23:00 - Speaker 1 Yeah, that's spot on. And speaking of so, kind of moving into this idea of the executive pastor, the role, you already described a little bit of how you see that. But what do you see are the core responsibilities of an executive pastor? 23:15 - Speaker 2 Yeah, that's a great question. I think, you know, at the end of the day it is working as a co-laborer alongside the lead pastor to implement the vision and the mission of that local expression of faith. And you know, typically for most of us in that role it is I kind of look at it as I hold certain things so you don't have to um so that you can receive more things, um. So whether it's finance, legal HR, you know staff development, you know those typically, you know are some of part and parcel of what it means to be an executive pastor. You are literally getting things done and removing barriers so that the vision can flourish and go forth. And so you know the way that I see it largely, you know, working out in our context, the Lord begins to speak to Pastor William about something He'll confirm it among our elders, and then we're mobilizing how to get that done. My role is largely going okay. What do we need? What is it going to take? How are we going to get there? You know, so that we are stewarding this vision and this mission and so largely from a, a, a core competency standpoint and kind of, you know the things that that include. Like I said, you're typically trafficking, you know, in legal matters. You know finance is a big one, you know HR is another one. You know these things that are organizational pillars, that when we're blowing and going and they're working well, man, it's like they're almost forgotten, right? Because I heard someone say if someone is doing something you know and it looks easy, it's because it's not. You know, they're just that good at it, they're making it look that way. But it's not so much that it's they're just that good at it they're making it look that way, but it's not so much that it's easy, it's just that they perfected it. And I think, really and truly, the goal of the executive pastor is trying to remove hurdles, remove burdens, so that the vision is accomplished. 25:11 You're, you're largely in the background, you know, largely unseen, um, but guys that are typically, or even you know sisters that are in this space, you know that have that call. You know that's actually some of what they're drawn to. They're drawn to the influence, they're drawn to the impact, but they don't necessarily. You know desire, you know the spotlight, as we call it. You know they're not necessarily spotlight as we call it. You know they're not necessarily advocating. You know for, for the, the, the stage, or you know that that communication lane they're okay with. You know, holding the load and making sure you know things get done, and that's largely typically, you know, their love language. 25:54 They're celebrating, you know, I know. For me, you know, the win is man that went off amazing. This was great, you know, I know. For me, you know, the win is man that went off amazing. This was great, you know, I feel great. I don't have to take any credit, but the fact that we started here and we got there and we were able to get there, that's all the satisfaction that I need. So, yeah, I think at the end of the day, man, it's really seeing yourself as a co-laborer and a brother to helping the one God has entrusted the vision to come to pass. 26:24 - Speaker 1 Pete Again, beautifully, beautifully said. I hope people listening start to get a bit of a sense for what that role can look like. And just a logistical question for you when Pastor William so functionally, when you guys are kind of talking, do you feel like it's your job to push back, to try and poke holes? Or would that be more of a situation where he comes to you and says, hey, I've got an idea and I want you to poke holes in it, or I want you to push back? Or maybe he comes to you and he says, hey, this has really been moving on my heart to push back. Or maybe he comes to you and he says, hey, this has really been moving on my heart. You know what are your, what's your response there? Are you thinking? Are you thinking, okay, how do I refine this? Or are you thinking I gotta, like you said, I gotta, I gotta help this come to fruition? 27:12 - Speaker 2 yeah, I think I don't want to speak for what your posture needs to be at every time, but I think you kind of go in and out of that, right, um, because, because part of it is you're getting into, you know scrutiny, right, like, do you scrutinize what you hear? Well, yeah, because you know part of that is just what it means to walk in wisdom, because you know part of that is just what it means to walk in wisdom is not so much that I'm looking to poke holes, but, more importantly, refinement. You know, has a positive side and, dare I say, negative side, from the standpoint of, hey, you got an idea? Well, have we thought about this? You know, a lot of times we want to call it risk mitigation. Right, have we looked at all the risk factors? Now, there may be so many risks that what we were supposed to do in that particular instance. So I think, as it relates to hey, when is there support, when is there scrutiny? 28:25 Well, I don't think that's a static thing. I think that those things ebb and flow, because that's part of just walking in wisdom together. You know, if somebody comes to you and says, hey, I got a good idea, you know, um, want to go rob banks You're not like. Well, how do I support? You know, support that. Now you're probably going to ask some questions. You know and scrutinize it, but the point is, you know your response, I think, as the executive pastor always ebbs and flows between scrutiny and support, but that's what healthy camaraderie and leadership and partnership looks like, so that, at the end of the day, what's standing is what's supposed to stand. Sometimes that's the version as presented, but oftentimes that's the version that has been reimagined through conversation, through dialogue and even, dare I say, even through prayer. 29:26 - Speaker 1 So, yeah, yeah, scrutiny and support, that's a great framework to think of it in. You know, is this a scrutiny situation or a support situation? Yeah, how do I appropriately wander through that? So that makes total sense to me. I'm curious about, as we kind of get into more again of the down and dirty of being an executive pastor. I'm super curious about just the struggles that maybe have come up for you. 30:00 That were surprising. You know that you thought, like, uh one, I'll maybe load your. I don't want to load your lips, but maybe this idea of, like you brought up, having to be involved with hr like, is that, you know? Is that? Was that a surprise to you? Did you did that? Is that harder? Has that been more difficult than you would have imagined? Like, again, if, if you and I are speaking to people who are considering this role, you know what? How would you help someone really have a clear understanding? And that includes the struggles, that includes the rewards, that includes um. I loved what you said about um, the. The joy for you is seeing an event go off without a hitch and hearing people really blessed by something you put together. 30:51 - Speaker 2 That's a reward, right, that's a reward to the job you get to do yeah, the struggles. 30:55 - Speaker 1 What's what's been, what's been difficult, it's been hard man, um covid. 31:08 - Speaker 2 I only bring that up because that was top of mind, because I think you know, for some of us in this seat that was you know kind of and I want to speak for everybody but it might have been your foray into, you know, leading amid a global crisis, right, um, and the disruption you know that that caused, and you're having to maybe lean on new skills that you quite didn't have to utilize, you know, and having to reimagine what ministry looks like and having to keep a community together and elite leadership together and vision, and you know all these things you know, um. So I think you know you know crisis in general are probably sometimes the, the, the wonderful surprises that are filled with refinement, but you struggle through them and I think part of it is crisis kind of pulls on your capability, right? You know what me one of the things about you know global crises that we've had to walk through, even personal crises, is I used to think like, how do people get good at this? Because you see people's resumes and they're like you know, I'm an expert in crisis management and I'm thinking to myself how does that happen? Well, I now understand how it happens. It happens because you deal with crisis right. You've had to kind of embrace it and I think one of the difficult parts of you know the executive role, or even just the leadership role, is leading when you don't have all the answers. 33:01 I think somewhere along the lines we picked up a definition of leadership. That means I have it all figured out, and I think part of what it really means to be a leader more importantly is to be faithful and to show up even when I don't have it all figured out. And I think for me, probably one of the most difficult things I've had to get comfortable with is actually being uncomfortable, whether it's a I got to let someone go because you know their performance is lagging. Or you know we got to stand up before the church and you know address, you know a personal situation. Or we've got to manage through. You know people are split because some want to wear masks, others don't want to wear masks, and you know you're dealing with the local implications of that, the national implications of that, but even just the you know communal, you know implications of that, all that stuff you know there's a lot of. There's a threat of uncertainty that runs through. You know crisis, but it actually there's a threat of uncertainty. I think that runs through, you know, crisis, but it actually there's a thread of uncertainty. I think that runs through leadership in general. 34:16 And I think what you have to be comfortable with and get comfortable with is I'm not going to know all the answers all the time and that's why I, you know, kind of put forth hey, you know, you see a person's resume and they're, they are putting forward that they're an expert in crisis management and you're going man, that's the person I need. No, they became that person through showing up when they didn't have all the answers and figuring it out. So that's probably been the most difficult is, again, just leading when I don't have all the answers. But it's just, you know, letting my understanding of what leadership is be expanded to say, Jason, it's not that you have all the answers, it's you show up even when you don't have all the answers and I think to a person that's listening, you know there might be managing a crisis. You know, maybe it's a leadership crisis, maybe it's a crisis with a member. You know, maybe it's an organizational crisis. 35:22 You know, and you, there's that temptation to just stall right and just go. I don't want to engage. Why? Because you're fearful? Why? Because you don't have it all figured out. I just want to tell that person you don't have to have it all figured out, but what you do have to decide is I'm going to show up and get it figured out and I think if you can get comfortable there, you know your effectiveness grows. 35:50 Because I think at the end of the day, if we're all honest, most of us probably get more wrong than we get right. It's just we just celebrate what we get right. But it's those things that we got wrong that help us to get things you know better in the future. So don't shy away from it. Don't be afraid to make a mistake. You better. We should be more afraid of not showing up than than making a mistake. So, um, yeah, I think, to just answer your question around it out, my biggest challenge has been learning to lead when I don't have all the answers, but realizing that leadership is not about having all the answers. It's showing up even when you don't have those. 36:30 - Speaker 1 There you go, we're going to, we're going to clip soundbite it, push it out everywhere Because it's so true. It's so true and I actually think that, for whatever reason, I'm sure you've experienced the same thing, but for whatever reason, especially in ministry, that's a really difficult thing for people to navigate. This idea of yeah, I don't know the answer, or a pastor being able to navigate this, this idea of, yeah, I don't know the answer, or, um, a pastor being able to tell someone, someone who has a genuine question or genuine problem, and a pastor be able to look at them and say you know what? I don't know what to do right now. Sure. 37:05 - Speaker 2 Sure. 37:05 - Speaker 1 You know I'll get back to you. Sure, or let's figure this out together, or, um, yeah, there's just so many different avenues you could take, but I love the way. I love what you're saying. Is you just? You just keep showing up. You know, if you, if you boil this all the way down? I mean, wouldn't you agree that, if, if and Jesus compares us to shepherds, uh, he's, he's the good shepherd, he's the head shepherd, we're under shepherds. But, man, you got to believe that there's not a shepherd in the world that that shows up every morning to see his flock and and has everything figured out yeah, yeah I bet there's. 37:41 I bet there's morning after morning where he shows up and there's a new problem he's never even thought of before yeah, yeah yeah, like oh my gosh, how did a honey badger get into the sheep pen? Like what am I supposed to do now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 37:55 - Speaker 2 I was ready for wolves. 37:57 - Speaker 1 Yeah, that wasn't on my plan today, that's right, and you're like, and to your point, covid, I mean, I don't even know if I'm allowed to say that, but yeah, a global pandemic Like that wasn't in anybody's you know building plan or fundraising plan, and yet here we are and um, and yeah, you're, you know you're. 38:19 - Speaker 2 Stronger for it, better for it, sure, hoping we don't see another one. But you know, I know we've. We've got a reference point now so that's right. 38:27 - Speaker 1 Well, and you know that you're right and that's. I hope people take that to heart. So, not so to keep it, not to get stuck in like a, I don't want to be talking about the pandemic too much longer. So what's you know? Share with me something. What's a big win? You've had recently Something that just really you thought, man, this really makes the job worth it. 39:18 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I think we have a annual global conference every year and it's taken on different shapes and hues throughout the years just because of the macro environment, things that are going on geopolitically and you know all of those things. So we've got people that are coming literally from all around, you know, the world. We've had events where, like you know, 15, 21 nations you know show up and so, and we've got churches, you know, around the around the globe. We've got one in Australia, shout out to them Ottawa, canada, namibia, south South Africa, ottawa, canada, namibia, south Africa, and then you know, orlando, and so you know, God's just kind of entrusted us, you know, with a measure of global influence, and particularly our lead pastor's got, you know, quite the footprint globally. And so we've been, you know, able to just kind of steward not only people in our backyard but people across waters and it's amazing. And so at some point point we typically, you know, during the year, have some sort of catalytic event that you know is for our community. You know we kind of call it for the family and friends, and so, um, the family comes in together, their friends also show up. So it's, it's really cool, and so we had what we call the deeper global conference. 40:10 Um, you know, this year, and you know it was it was caked in a lot of uh, turbulence. You know should I say relative to you know you got tariffs and inflation and people not been able to get visas, and you know there's just a lot of stuff, you know, going on when you've got, you know, hundreds. You know and and and a couple thousand people that you're trying to, you know, move around. You know and and and and and help, you know, pull this event off. And you know there were moments where, literally, I think we were just like, yeah, we're not sure we're going to do it and all that. But God was gracious to us, you know, to us we had a lot of meetings, meetings every week for about a year planning this thing, and God was gracious and we were able to kind of surmount some pretty major hurdles, because people may not necessarily readily remember this, because it's amazing how many crises we're actually in, even as we're talking right now, that you know we're, we're busy on our phones and responding, but you know we'd probably lose count of how many literal global crisis you know are going off right at this moment. And so you know we were planning this and executing it, you know, right when you know tariffs are landing and visas are being canceled. So it was it was it was a chaotic. You know climate obviously inflation has been doing what it's doing and so you know you've got people from you know different economic. You know situations from around the world, things are affecting them differently and so we're feeling just kind of the the grunt of all of this. 41:56 But had the conference and man, all the turmoil that you know we had to undergo and we went through leading up to it, was so worth it. You know, for us, when we just begin to hear the stories of just how God met people throughout that week and not only did God meet, you know, people spiritually in an intimate, undeniable way, but we also partnered with Compassion. And you know we got 85 kids, you know, sponsored through Compassion. And then we did something. This is kind of remarkable in a year where we typically only do one environment. We actually had three going on. So we had a pastors and leaders thing, our normal, you know, kind of big gathering, and then we also had a kids conference going on. 42:49 I think for me kind of the watershed moment of so much of the struggle that got us to this moment was walking into our kids' auditorium and seeing five and six-year-olds on their faces, praying and just weeping as the Spirit of God began to move over their hearts and they were crying out. 43:15 You know, Lord, speak to me. The whole theme of the conference was he that hath an ear, and so our kids team took that to kind of make it palpable and accessible, you know, for our young believers. And the whole point was how do they hear? Well, they hear through God's word, they hear God's voice through his word, and so, literally for three days, they were immersed in teaching, you know, the next generation how to read their Bibles and what that looks like in journaling and all of those things. And because I get to participate, you know, in that portion of our ministry quite frequently, you know, I that portion of our ministry quite frequently, you know, I was able to kind of leave the main gathering and go over there and I've we've got it on video and I kid you, not man, to just see. You know again, literal babies, you know, um, when you're 40, you know five is a baby right. 44:11 You're just, you know 10 is a baby. But literally see these babies, man just crying out to the Lord. You know the spirit of God just moving over there. Fresh hunger is stirring in their heart and they're leaving this conference saying I want to read God's word more, I want to be in God's presence more and now they've got a method that we call the hear method that kind of walks them through. You know different postures as it relates to how they sit with scripture and you know the questions they ask when they're. You know coming to a text and journal and how to take those. You know journaling questions and translate them into prayer and just the stories of parents that are coming back going. 44:51 My kids can't stop reading the Bible. You know they just won't put it down. And we gave every kid a Bible. You know that came to the conference and you know you see all these little kids. If you come to our kids area, where you know those old school like Bible bags where you're, you know you had your Bible in a bag and it was the zipper around it. It had this like gaudy stuff on the outside. Back in the 90s we gave those out and I kid you, not all of our kids are kind of carrying these things around. 45:19 The reason we did is because we're like, we're so engrossed digitally that we want them to go old school, analog, and be like no, you need a Bible on your nightstand, no, you need a Bible next to your bed. We know you've got the app on your phone and I'm grateful for technology. I'm grateful for the guys at Life Church that created YouVersion and how amazing that is and all the digital mediums, if you will, just trying to re-acclimate them and reintroduce to them to that old school feeling of you know, flipping that text, getting that highlighter out and going deep. And, matter of fact, you know, we had devotions as a family a night ago and I'm teaching our kids through the doctrine of sin kind of a scary word you know here lately. But I say all the time if you don't know how sick you are, you can't embrace the cure. When you understand what Jesus has done, worship makes all the sense in the world, right, but you got to know how marred you are and what he saved you from. 46:29 And so I tell everybody go get their Bible. What did they? Go? Get that Bible bag with that Bible in it and all the highlighters and they're sitting there as I'm reading through Romans 5, you know, and they're highlighting, you know those verses Well, we taught them that at home, but it was reinforced during the conference and we've just seen the takeaway, not only for our kids but other kids a hunger is for God's word like never before. 46:55 So that for me, you know, just that turmoil leading up to that, but, man, the win on the other side of seeing people you know want to know Jesus more, want to know his word more and want to feast upon it, that was worth everything. So if you got listeners that are listening there, you know, maybe they're planning something, maybe they're strategizing for the next year, and it's like man, this year's been crazy. I'm telling you, get in touch with that life change. Get in touch with those stories of people that are on the other side of your meetings, of your decisions, on the other side of your hesitancy, on the other side of your quitting, your hesitancy on the other side of your quitting, because, I'm telling you, attached to your follow through is people that are following Jesus, you know, in fresh ways. 47:38 - Speaker 1 So yes, you got to send me a picture of one of those little bags you gave away. 47:42 - Speaker 2 I'll do that, man. Yeah, they were old school 80, you know late eighties, nineties, bags. Man, Like people don't walk around those Bibles bag anymore, but our generation kids have them. 47:53 - Speaker 1 I love it, I would, I would, I would be, I'd pay so much money to see a picture of a whole line of kids walking into class with their bags and their bibles. That's so cool. It's so cool. Actually reminds me of I remember when my daughter was a lot younger. Um, when she would read the bible, she'd highlight every last thing she read. And I remember thinking one day, like you're just supposed to highlight the really cool stuff, yeah. And that was like immediate conviction of like isn't the whole Bible cool? 48:26 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah exactly, I think she's got it right. Wow, you've got it right. Wow, wow, wow. 48:32 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I had to laugh about that, but, yeah, I love you're it right. Wow, you've got it right. Wow, wow, wow. Yeah, I had a, I had a laugh about that, but yeah, I, I love you're so right. We gotta, we gotta, get our faces down on those pages that smell like you know, musty and damp. And, yeah, stop staring at the phones all the time. 48:45 - Speaker 2 Sure, sure. That's really cool. Nothing wrong with technology. I use my Bible app and I think it's wonderful we're doing a digital podcast, brother. Exactly so. Another phone with that From Phoenix to Orlando, yeah. Yeah, it's just one of those things that I think, because of so many other things that go on in that environment, it's good to kind of have, you know, uber, focus and, you know, let God's word speak to you. 49:08 - Speaker 1 Yes, sir, yep. So I hope that again, the way that you described that whole event and the way that you kind of shared the payoff and the win, I hope that people really hear the heart of what you're saying, which is yes, it took a long time, yes, it was difficult, but here was the payoff Countless kids, countless kids in the Word, and leaders and pastors and everybody else, that was there. So, God, we have to keep that. We have to keep that in our minds when we're doing what we do. 49:42 So, I'm hopeful that there are people listening who I mean, I guess, I would assume, but people who have considered being an executive pastor specifically. I think it's a beautiful role in the church and I think, like you said, there's biblical precedence for this type of thing. Again, you and I, when we first talked, we were talking about Jethro Moses' wife, who rolls in as, like you, guys need an admin person, bro. 50:09 - Speaker 2 Yes, yeah, right. But that executive level admin person, bro, yes, yeah, right. 50:12 - Speaker 1 But that executive level. So can you help us for, as we kind of wrap up, but can you help us If I want to become an executive pastor, what should I do? 50:22 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I would say first pray. Pray about it. If that's what's on your heart, take it to the Lord. He wired you, he made you and he's going to affirm and confirm that desire in you, I think, from that place. Once you pray, write it down. What do you see? How do you see the contribution that you're being called to make to the Lord's church? How do you see that working out? And I think, after you write it down, take it to some people that you trust, particularly your leader or leaders, depending on your polity and how you're structured, and submit it to them in prayer. 51:03 Look, we get the privilege. The church gets a lot of bad rap for a lot of things, but the one thing we can say is we've been saved, not just to God but to a family, and we don't we, we sometimes don't take advantage of the wisdom that are inside. You know those that walk alongside of us that can kind of take those those years Cause, let's just be honest, sometimes we're feeling a thing and sensing a thing, and it might be months before we give voice to it, um, and you're talking yourself in and out of that thing long before you've ever even uttered a word. You know to anybody, and you can save yourself so much stress and anxiety just being humble enough to just say, brother, you know, this is what I'm sensing, this is what I believe I'm called to. Can you pray with me? And I think as you mobilize it in prayer, you get clear on paper and you submit it to wise counsel. You know, then, you're just asking the Lord to make it clear, unveil the path, and, like I said earlier, you know that desire that you have typically is responding to a need in God's family. He's putting it on your heart. I think that's the other thing you know, which is why I lean heavily on the pastor before the executive. 52:29 You know, at the end of the day, God the role of the pastor is meant to be a gift to the family of God, to the church of God, and so you know, when you're responding to a need, that need, literally, typically, is spirit born because there's a gap in God's family that he wants to shore up and it's quite possible that he's equipped you to do it. And so well, that need typically is not just known to you, it's known to others, and once you give voice to it, typically what happens is somewhere and it may not look exactly like you want it to look. There may be a refinement or massaging that takes place, but that's okay. There's safety in a multitude of counsel, but typically, once you give voice to it, God's been stirring somebody else's heart for something similar, because God is about making sure his church is whole and healthy. So if there's a need, it's not just known to you, it's known to others, and so he just might be inviting you to increase your faith by walking in greater faith, by giving voice to the things that he's speaking on the inside of you. 53:35 So I would just say pray, write, submit to counsel and let God unfold the path and from there let it just kind of emerge. You know and be okay with God's process of how you get there. Most of us have stories in our lives where we just can say man, I was thinking about this, I talked to this brother or this sister and I had no idea that they were involved in this or doing that. Well, what was the risk that needed to be taken? The risk was not that you had to figure it out. The risk is that you just needed to be faithful, to give voice to it, and once you were able to do that. God confirmed the rest. So yeah, I just say pray, write, submit to counsel and let God unfold the journey. 54:20 - Speaker 1 Yep, yep. I want to highlight something you said earlier and I think you just repeated, but this idea of writing the thing down. You know there's so much power in getting it out of your brain and getting it out on paper, and then much power in getting it out of your brain and getting it out on paper, yeah, and then, like you said, sharing with others. 54:40 There's um, there is a, there's a safety and there's a power in the institute of counsel, yeah, so so those are amazing steps. Well, share with us as we, as we finish up. Um, so deeper fellowship, right, orlando? Yeah, yeah, for fellowship, orlando. Someone wants to visit you, wants to come check out what you guys are doing? And then what about someone who's listening, who maybe wants to really dig in on this and ask you some questions? Are you open to getting emails? Absolutely okay, yeah, I'll throw an email in the your email address in the uh, show notes please, yeah, please, yeah, our church is. 55:13 - Speaker 2 I'd say, go to our website, deeperfellowshipchurch.org. That'll direct you to all the ways that you can interact with us. You can search us on YouTube. We're live on YouTube every Sunday Deeper Fellowship Church. So, yeah, and if you're in Orlando, yeah, it'd be great to see you. We're at 4,400 South orange Avenue, literally right between downtown and the airport, so we're centrally located. Um, we get a lot of visitors coming in all the time. So, yeah, you're more than welcome. Um, folks are great, um, God's doing some amazing things there. So, um, you can certainly check us out there. 55:52 And if you have questions relative to you know, hey, I want somebody to hear me out. Maybe you hear what I'm prescribing relative to pray and write down. You're like, do you mind if I send you what I'm writing down? Yeah, I don't mind, you know, reading that and being a brother to you and maybe counseling you. You know, in that space, um, I would welcome, you know, the opportunity to walk alongside anybody who is taking seriously, you know, um, the stirring of God, you know, in their lives. So, yeah, feel free to put my email there, feel free to send me an email and um, I will respond. Um, and maybe you know, give you a nugget or two that helps you on the journey that God has invited you on. 56:34 - Speaker 1 Beautifully said. I think that's probably a great note to end on. And, pastor, we appreciate your time so much, your family, your 10 kids. That was not a typo, no, and yeah, bless you as we get into the holiday season and everything you guys are doing, and we'll talk to you soon. God. Bless you as we get into the holiday season and everything you guys are doing, and we'll talk to you soon. 56:53 - Speaker 2 Thank you, Matt, it was a pleasure All right. 56:57 - Speaker 1 Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with another pastor or ministry leader who you think might benefit from this conversation. And if you're looking for more tools and resources to help you preach and lead with confidence, be sure to check out sermoncentral.com slash podcast. Sermon Central is the largest online resource hub for pastors and ministry leaders. From illustrations to outlines to media, you'll find everything you need to preach and lead effectively. So check out sermoncentral.com/podcast, where you'll even find a special podcast listener discount on our membership pricing. Check it out and stay tuned for our next episode. You.