From the Ground Floor: Charlie Kirk and the Cultural Climate of Evangelical Christianity

00:02 - Speaker 1 Over the past couple of weeks I've had countless conversations with people about the Charlie Kirk Memorial that happened here in Arizona. In addition to that, you know, I've talked to a lot of people just about the current state of Christianity, the culture and kind of some different things going on, as I'm sure many of you have too. But one thing I began wondering was like what did it feel like to someone who was actually in the building during the memorial? And so today I'm super excited because we've got Jesse Jackson joining us, who was not only at the memorial but he also writes on evangelical Christianity, he studies it, he works with it every single day and he's got an amazing perspective on the things going on. So, without further ado, let's jump in, let's hear from Jesse. Can't wait to hear from him. 00:56 Morning here with Jesse Jackson, a guy I've worked with for gosh many, many years now. We've worked on different projects together and, Jesse, you have a. You have an amazing perspective on things going on in faith. You were lucky enough you went to the Charlie Kirk Memorial here in Arizona, so you got to have that perspective. So today I'm hoping to just kind of let you ask, you allow whatever you want to say, but I'm hoping that you would just kind of peel back some of the layers and open up your mind and your thoughts and share with us some of what you've observed and some of what you're thinking. And so, before we get too far, though, would you maybe share, for people who don't know you but, what you do, what you work on, what you think about, as kind of an intro. 01:45 - Speaker 2 Right? No for sure. So, as you said, my name is Jesse and I get the pleasure of writing Christian news every day and working mainly on church leaders, so churchleaders.com, which is that's how we know each other and we get to work together, and my official title is Senior Content Editor. But I get to do I mean, my job is not a job. The way that I always look at it it's like I don't work, I don't feel like it. I get to do what I love to do and write things that I love to get to write and really just kind of inform the church from an array of different areas, that's, from hard-hitting news that I think is coming from within the churches and amongst the churches to lighthearted news that is kind of like media and Christian music and new films that are coming out. And I get the opportunity to, you know, be on red carpets and talk to famous people and act like I have no clue what I'm doing, which is usually the case Like oh my goodness, I'm here. 03:03 But yeah, I mean that is what I get to do every single day and sometimes you know that is, it's an easy thing and then sometimes you deal with like we did with a couple of weeks ago yeah, I think we're coming up on a couple of weeks, aren't we, Matt, with? You know the news of Charlie Kirk, which I know that we're going to talk about here in a little bit and those are things you don't prepare for. They hit and they're like I got to get this out and you just work for it. So that's literally kind of what I get to do every day, and I've got a great team over church leaders that I get to work with. 03:37 And yeah, hopefully we're giving you guys the news that you guys are able to read and that kind of you know, as you say, edifies you in a way that informs you, so that from a pastor's position, you can inform your congregation and you can be informed, that's our hope. 03:57 - Speaker 1 And how long have you been, I mean, doing this kind of thing? 04:00 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so I've been at outreach for going on a little over nine years I still do, and I was hired on to be their email manager and I still do that. But the last four years I think I don't know they'll hold me to that I think four years I kind of weaseled my way into I will say it that way into writing news and kind of doing a shift on church leaders because that wasn't the big thing in church leader land, and doing a shift in and bringing the news. Now, before we didn't do that, our outlet where we have this news kind of outlet organization that that brings the news which, uh, really we did not have in. Uh, if we said outreach, outreach land, if that, if that makes sense. 04:53 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yep, that makes sense Totally, yeah, yeah. So, like you said you, you did end up, or. I don't know if you said this or I said this, it doesn't matter. But you did end up at the Kirk Memorial. How does that entire thing kind of manifest for you? How did you get there? 05:10 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so through what I do, like I said, I cover things, probably the last, I want to say two, two-ish years maybe when TPUSA, so Turning Point USA. They have multiple different, I wouldn't say divisions, but outlets where they kind of focus on certain things. One of those is TPUSA Faith and they really give resources to the church, they try to provide things to pastors and stuff like that. So I got associated and connected with the person that was running the senior director at that time that was running TPUSA Faith and was invited to go and cover some of those events and so through that I kind of got to know internally, at least from the faith side and there's crossover, obviously with a lot of those things, but mainly the faith side that I was able to make those connections and that senior director had ended up leaving in the last almost kind of year, but I knew the new senior director that came on, which is Lucas Miles, and he's a pastor out of Indiana, through other things that I've covered and with Lucas and through mutual friends that we have. So I've been able to stay in contact and be a part. 06:31 Just recently in August they had a pastors kind of faith summit where there was about 600 pastors that they brought out to California and just kind of, for three days, just kind of, you know, poured into them and, uh, a lot of preaching uh was going on. So it's not, it's not a political rally, it's not. You know, there, there there's a handful of Greg Greg Laurie was there, um, to name one. Uh, there was a few other pastors that were there that did some preaching. Charlie spoke at that one Uh, but I uh at, kind of in the last minute, I had a friend. There was a media panel at a friend that was supposed to be there and he got sick, and so I ended up filling in for that media panel and was with a few people on stage there, uh, so I was actually able to, you know, do something at a TPUSA event, which was an honor. 07:27 So, yeah, I've met Charlie. I didn't know him well, but I've met Charlie a handful of times and I know you know a lot of people that spoke that you saw at the memorial Pastor Rob, you know, frank Turek, I know those guys that I've been able to meet those guys as well. So through that I reached out and said, hey, I would love to be there, um, and I was blessed to be able to get a. I wouldn't call it a VIP, but that's kind of what it is Right Um area. So I was. I was front and center, um, not far away from from the stage at all, and yeah, it was definitely an honor to be there. 08:08 It's kind of how it manifested, which is a crazy day we ended up getting there at we had to be there at seven o'clock in the morning and you go through all of the security, all the secret service detail, fbi, dog sniffing, you know your cars type deal and you're like whoa, this is. I mean, from my perspective, it's kind of cool to see, because you're like man, this is how this happens. You know to be part of that as a, as a guy that covers the news. So it was really cool to just see the inner workings and, obviously, the heightened security that goes into an event like that. 08:43 - Speaker 1 So, yeah, amazing, yeah, I really want to. I want to hear from you and pick your brain, see what you like. What did it feel like? What were your impressions? Um, which speaker kind of moved away? You know those different questions from from the outside. So, as you know, I live in Arizona and we had quite a few friends that were at the event. Um, my kids actually had a lot of friends that ended up there from school and stuff and uh, so they were sending pictures and stuff throughout the day and like it seemed insane, it just seemed intense and but, um, I think myself and others maybe people listening like we have an impression of what that must have felt like and but I don't know, is that correct? Is it? Was it as amazing and was it as inspiring as people say? So that's kind of what I want to hear from you about is, yeah? 09:43 - Speaker 2 totally yeah it. Yeah. There were multiple different things that I took away from it of actually being there. One, just being able to connect with the people that were around, I think was, you know, obviously, like I said, I knew a lot of the TPUSA people, so to be able even the ones that did work there, like I told you, that have left they were there to be able to reconnect with them and through this event and just be there, that was one. I felt that that was an honor that I could be there. 10:17 I don't just cover news, but you build relationships with a lot of these people and that doesn't mean that, you know, as a preference you don't have to agree with everything. I don't agree with everything that I hear from pastors, to be honest with you, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect them. I don't give them, you know, an opportunity that I want to hear them. So you have that crowd that you see there. First off, I was amazed by one the ability to help God and everybody that you will talk to that was involved with TPUSA, that was in the processes of forming this whole entire thing within literally days you know, days a week, uh to get an event like this to come together in a football stadium um, not an arena, a stadium. Uh, that is, honestly, you know, and you, you live there, Matt, it's one of the largest football stadiums around, because it was a college stadium for a while. Um, which you which is amazing just to even think about so to watch this thing fill up, we were there first, right, because we had to be on the floor, we had to go through. Now you're watching this thing and it's almost like the slow motion time lapse of it fill up and how it fills up and it just continue. And these people are here and you're like, okay, what's going to happen? Well, worship starts. Um, there was a I. I didn't know who was performing first. It wasn't. Uh, we'll call them it's funny, I'll use this word and I can, because I know I know some of them very well Um, the Avengers of the worship is kind of what we were kind of calling them. I mean, you can't get better than Chris Tomlin and Phil Wickham and Brandon Lake and Kerry and Cody, and you're just like, wow, but as people were filling in and the worship had started, so I don't know when they started streaming the event, but worship was happening before. You saw Phil and Brandon and Carrie and Cody take the stage. So, right then and there, you already have this presence of like this is a church presence. 12:34 It was on Sunday, I think that's what they were going for, and we're going to start this with worship and, although there were a lot of people talking and they're coming in, people were singing, they're worshiping God, and so, just to see, that was something that you're like, okay, this might not have been something that everybody was seeing and it was kind of amazing. And then the worship kicks in. You know, the Avengers of the worship, you know, kick it in and goosebumps from time to time to time. And I just I've seen these guys. I just saw Brandon and Phil on their summer worship tour and covered that and I've talked to them multiple times. But this to see and to know what they were doing in this moment to who knows who is coming there, right, most people and I know this is bad to kind of say, and some people would be like, oh well, don't say it that way you kind of have this assumption that a lot of people know Jesus or know of Jesus. Sure, in this situation, I think that's the opposite, where you're like you could have atheists in here who, just like Charlie and like the way that he talked and want to you know, you know pay respects to him. So it was really cool, and to watch them take the perspective of this is a God moment. We're going to talk scripture, we're going to lead these people in worship. 13:58 Those guys gave nothing and not that, and there was some. There was some political, you know, talk throughout all the speakers that were there and if anybody watched it they could see that. But the worship was. It was Jesus, Jesus and Jesus period. That was it. So that was definitely a highlight to me and seeing those guys react. 14:19 And I'll be honest with you and I covered a story. I wrote one last week. I believe all of those people Chris, phil, brandon, carrie, all of them have gotten major backlash from not just Christians but pastors who have said I appreciated your music before, but now that I've seen you go and talk at a TPUSA event and this memorial, then I'm no longer. It's going to take me a while to trust you again, and so I wrote an article on that. John Cooper from Skillet actually kind of even talked into that too as somebody that's very bold, you know, person of the faith that speaks a lot and he just stood up for him. 15:06 So to see that and to know I knew that they would get that. I knew that they would get that because that just happens. So I respected that big time because you know what they were like. This is an opportunity that we know this is going to go out to millions of people and we get to talk about Jesus. I'm not going to lose this opportunity and I praise God that they took it and didn't say, oh, this could hurt my career or this could hurt my fan base. And they were like it's all about Jesus and brandon's even talked about that, since, and you know, I encourage you go go check out what he said. So so that was the first part, right? Yeah, the second. 15:42 - Speaker 1 The second part. Can I ask a question? Yeah, totally, I read or saw maybe you could confirm or deny this but one outlet was reporting over a hundred million streams of the events. Yeah, and I got to thinking about that and I was like that that doesn't even count. The other streaming platforms we don't even know about. Like, do we even know the YouTube, youtube numbers? Do we even know the um? Like, what do we know? 16:07 - Speaker 2 no, it's, it's way bigger than that. And, uh, one of the tp usa guys that handled all that kind of even put another statistic out. I think I have it, one of my articles, I don't know it off the top of my head, but it was also in addition to all those streamings, how many I think it's, how many engagements they got. Okay, so it was. You know, that's kind of like if you watch a stream but then you engage in it Because many people could be watching the stream, right, you know, a church could be watching the stream and there could be 100 people there, but the engagements then that's. You know, that's 100 people that you don't know about. That can add to that hundred million, right, that that saw that. So, um, there's so much that would go into this thing. 16:53 This thing was, I mean, I think, historically one of the largest stream to gospel events, and I'm going to say it that way because I was there to see. Yes, there were some things in there that and a few of the guys that I wouldn't say, hey, let's rewatch that again. But one of the first ones to ask was Rob McCoy, pastor Rob McCoy, who is? He gave the gospel, the clear, the clear, undefiled gospel and thousands of people around the arena stood and that we don't know how many people then I mean I don't personally and I didn't see the statistics I don't know how many people that were watching streams made decisions. So that was for Christ, so that was amazing to see. And then you had, shortly after that, you had Frank Turrett came up and Frank was actually at the event, he was in the car, that and Frank is an apologetics person who defends the faith very well. 17:55 - Speaker 1 I've met Frank at a few events or a mentor of Kurt right. 18:00 - Speaker 2 Yes, yes, a mentor of Kurt. That's why he was at the event. So I think he kind of helps, you know, he would help Charlie kind of, you know, defend certain things and you saw that throughout Charlie's years he matured in the way that he defended that in the Christian faith, if that makes sense. And I think part of that was because of Frank. But, all that to say, frank was in the, he actually helped carry Charlie in the car and was praying over Charlie and he has this whole story. I'm not going to go into that, but shared a little bit of that. My man again gave the gospel in that. 18:40 And then I think what was amazing to see and I expected it from certain people, I mean, you have an administration we have. You have, we'll say, I mean, right Trump administration that was mainly there, who Charlie obviously did help get elected by you know, that's no secret of kind of influencing and speaking and kind of campaigning on their behalf, many of them right JD, even when JD was trying to become a senator and stuff like that. So not just this last one, but multiple things through there, good friends with, oh man, multiple people through the administration, multiple people through the administration. All that to say. What was amazing is you hear that some of the administration are Bible-believing, Jesus people. Right, and I'm not going to go down a road of what I think and what people should think, and that's not what. It's what I heard, and some of those that blew me away was uh, jd Vance, um, speaking the gospel and speaking the Bible, um, pete, uh, you know um's the secretary of defense. 20:02 He was there. Yes, he was there. And then you had Marco Rubio, who did an amazing job. It was like that dude was up there preaching. It was just like a sermon Again countless people hearing the gospel over and over. 20:18 But what I wanted, what we saw, is that you have Elon Musk in the building. Okay, which kind of was interesting to me. Why is Elon there? You had Dana White, who's the president of the UFC I'm a big UFC fan who was there? Why is Dana there? Like Charlie had an influence on Dana to be there, or did Charlie have an influence on this administration to be there? Or or did Charlie have an influence on this administration? And because of the administration, dana White wants to be there to to pay, like so there's so many things you can look at. Here's the thing they heard the gospel not once, twice, many times over, and so I praise God for that, that and I pray that they, you know, hear and take that in and the Holy Spirit works in their lives and that soon, very soon, that they give their lives to Christ and they come to repentance. 21:10 And how can you hate and dislike an event like that? I was getting chills knowing like, wow, elon just walked by here Elon is tweeting. And granted, who knows, Tweet, tweet, tweet, whatever. But Elon is tweeting go, granted, who knows, you know, tweet, tweet, tweet, whatever. But Elon is tweeting go to church, what, what, what pastor wouldn't be like. I don't agree with Elon, but I will endorse that. I mean, that's the thing and I think that's kind of the culture that I hope that we start to recognize that we're in, if that makes sense. 21:47 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I love what you're saying and it reminds me of the I'm going to I'm going to botch it, but the the story in the gospels right, where the disciples come back to Jesus and they're like, hey, these other guys are doing what you told us to do and Jesus is like uh, yeah, if, if they're not against. 22:10 like if they're not against us, yeah, they're for us, yeah, they're for us. Yeah, it's a little reminds me a bit of what you're saying with these guys that are here and and like I mean I totally agree with you, like I I don't know why, you know, mr musk, musk is tweeting go to church, but who cares? Yeah, who cares. I mean, if, gosh, it's like you said, like if, if a hundred people decide to go because of what he said, then amazing, I mean I've heard, I've heard people say this phrase and I think I think this is probably true in this, in this moment. But but let's make heaven crowded, that's right. And so like wouldn't we? Yeah, wouldn't we be excited that some of these things are happening? So, yeah, I totally agree with you. 22:56 And I think it's the way you say it too. I think is so important for people to hear is, like you said, like it wasn't just. It wasn't just you know someone getting up and sharing the gospel, who you would expect you know Charlie's pastor or his mentor, um, but then it was person after person after person you know, sharing their faith, um, talking about Christ, talking about their faith in Christ, and kind of opening themselves up and being bold and being honest. Yeah, amazing, totally amazing. 23:27 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. And it did remind me like and this thought went through my head a few times and you're like why? You know, everybody always asks this like so why did this have to happen? And you know, we don't know. On this side of heaven we do not know. And will God ever tell us when we get there? I don't know. Will we just know? I don't know, do I need to know? No, but I I think about it, right, and so you're like you know especially what kind of hit me hard was. 23:54 I was just with this guy in August and you know you're like, wow, why did this have to happen? And then you're at this event and you see everything that's going on and you're like you start asking these questions. Right, one of the questions that I asked was will we ever see and this is a bipartisan statement, is what I'm about to make Will we ever see an administration in one building get together with millions of people watching and proclaim the gospel like they did and name names? But I will say that I believe that someone that spoke during that memorial service I believe that their practicing faith is Hindu, yet they spoke the gospel clearly because they were quoting Charlie and what Charlie's faith was. That should blow your mind because it goes back to exactly what you're talking about. Right, but? But? But you know, the disciples are like, oh, but Jesus, they're not one of us, they're not in our group, and they're over there proclaiming your name. Jesus is like they're proclaiming my name and proclaiming my father's name. Let it be, let it be. And so, um, yeah, this that was just something that I took away, that that was big and it's, and you also, you know, I heard, um, uh, I heard MacArthur speak um a couple of years ago and actually sorry, it was at a T4G event, so together for the Gospel event. 25:42 And I heard MacArthur speak one time and he was speaking on Revelation. So everybody's like, oh sweet, this is going to be Revelation. And he was speaking on the seven churches in Revelation and Revelation 3. And one perspective that I just never took away from, and MacArthur says I believe that we're in the time and I believe it's either the sixth or the seventh church, and it's the passage that a lot of people that I've heard being taken out of context where Jesus is on the outside of the door and he's knocking on the door right and we're like, oh, he's knocking on the door of your heart, you know, having come in. Well, macarthur was explaining what that is is. He's knocking on the door of the church and MacArthur goes because the church has put him on the outside. 26:30 And it made me think of that again while I'm sitting there looking at all these people and I'm like has the church put Jesus on the outside? Jesus on the outside? So now Jesus is using this to wake up the church and hopefully allow certain churches to join in in the movement of, let's just say it, we hope that it is revival, right, and that's kind of my, my, my whole take on like let's stop the rhetoric. This isn't about Charlie Kirk, this isn't about some political agenda. This is about, because of a man's imperfect faith, God is using it to ignite his kingdom, and so I just hope that the church puts away all of this stuff because we can find it, I can write I haven't written all of them, let's put it that way, there's too many to write of just churches saying oh well, Charlie, the way he said it this way was not Jesus Don't care right now. 27:33 What I care about is the flame, right now, of revival. The flame of the gospel is ignited Church, don't be too proud to join it. That's kind of where I would hit that. 27:48 - Speaker 1 That's a great word. Yeah, I would add to that. I mean, one of the things I've been really encouraged about is, since moving here to Phoenix, been spending a lot of time with youth and volunteered in our own church's youth program and it's been amazing to see the passion of, especially a lot of the young men and women just passionately pursuing their faith and being moved. You know it's, I feel like you know, Jesse, it's like we talk all the time about. You know, confession with the mouth, let's say, is one thing. One thing to say like, yeah, I'm a Christian, it's another thing to go out and live. You know what you, what you're professing and confessing and I feel like that's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing people changing and transforming. And you know, like you said, like being on fire. You know, like you said, like being on fire, you know there's a there's an excitement to be an intern at the church. There's an excitement to be, um called a leader. There's an excitement to help plan, um an event or an outing or a service project. There's there's a joy about gathering together. Like that it's amazing. Yeah, that's what we want, yeah, so, yeah, i's what we want, yeah, so, yeah, I love it, I love it and that kind of I guess like, uh, as you and I talked about, but that kind of transitions, maybe you're you're a nice time together this morning over into you know? 29:15 I really wanted to ask you, as someone who writes on culture, who I mean? You've already referenced probably a dozen different articles since we've been talking today, so you write on this consistently, you're thinking about it constantly. But I really wanted to hear, as you write, as you interview, as you talk to people, what are you seeing, what are you feeling about the current cultural atmosphere of evangelical Christianity? You brought up revival a few times, even this. Even you even had me thinking. At this TP USA faith event in August, you mentioned that several pastors spoke. Well, what were they talking about? What were they fired up about? What were they trying to encourage the other leaders in the room to be thinking about? So yeah, could you give enlighten? 30:04 - Speaker 2 us. Yeah, I think I would say that it's nothing new, and I mean that as probably both good and bad. We have to be reminded that because of who we are in Christ and because we have the Holy Spirit are in Christ and because we have the Holy Spirit, we have to stop relying on ourselves. There isn't new ways. There isn't my way is better, it is God's way, and God's only way, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, just like when you think about all the disciples, even apart from John, right, and John, it just didn't work. They tried to kill him three times. It just didn't work. They tried to kill him three times. You know, I think multiple times. You have the Holy Spirit. That doesn't. It empowers you to be bold, and what I mean by that is, no matter the situation, our lives, our breath is about one thing, and one thing only, first and foremost, and that's God. If you're a Christian, and through our society and through our culture and I've seen this, this is kind of what I've seen is that, especially in our digital media age, it's so easy to be distracted. Let's go back to the original source, right? Genesis 3. Where know, where's the distraction? Right? That's never changed, if anything it's become. You know, we don't just have one fruit in front of us, we have a bazillion fruit every day in front of us, right? And so I say that to say, listen, we need to be about the main thing and keep it the main thing, and that's God. And we have that. We have the Holy Spirit in us. Let's not forget that as they pour in a passage is is have the courage. 32:06 Uh, and one thing that's that resonated with me in this last one and Luke Luke this actually came from Lucas Miles, who's the senior director of TPUSA. Faith was on his first opening thing and he just, he just said this and he gave a little bit of a backstory to why. But his main point was is you gotta want it? You got to want it, and that sounds so simple as a Christian is that you got to want Jesus number one, you got to want people to come to Jesus number two, and if you don't want it, you're going to do what you want. That's the bottom line, and we don't want that, because what I want as a Christian is I want Jesus and I want, like you say, I want to make heaven crowded. That's kind of been the catchphrase now. So that's one of the things and something that you and I had talked about right before we hit record that I think is so big to bring up, and you use the word evangelicals and I'll give you this article so you can link it, because we just wrote it and this will be at our show notes or wherever you put the stuff. 33:06 Ligonier so that was RC Sproul's stuff that I believe his son runs now Ligonier and I think Lifeway helped out with it did a state of theology kind of report and I think they do it every year. I think that's correct. But this recent one that they just did it came out a few weeks ago. They only pull. From my understanding, they only pull evangelicals or people that call themselves evangelicals. They give you the whole way of how they pull. That stat in One of the most concerning things that I saw in there was 47% of evangelicals believe that God accepts worship, and try to get it right. 33:52 God accepts worship from all religions. So, and the ones in the name was like Islam, um, it was one of the big ones that they named. So it's it. What it does is it becomes uh, it doesn't become exclusive where the gospel is exclusive right, it becomes all you know like and it's just. That's so untrue and that is and I'll say the word what it is, because we can see this in scripture. It's so demonic to believe that, but these are evangelical Christians saying that. So, pastor, I, here's my warning Know what your congregation believes, because don't assume that they know the gospel and that they know the biblical gospel. Make sure that you're preaching that from the pulpit, because there is no reason why an evangelical should be walking around saying, oh, it doesn't matter, oh, you're a person of faith, great, then I'll see you in heaven, because that's pretty much what they're saying. That is completely a false gospel and we are warned about that multiple times in scripture. So that's kind of my warning in a real quick overview, that that is what I'm seeing right now And-. 35:10 - Speaker 1 So would you maybe say I'm going to add some words to it. Yeah, You'd maybe say so. This culture that we're living in is becoming more inclusive, more open. So when Jesus says, hey, you know, broad is the road that leads to destruction, Narrow is the road that leads to life, the culture's saying no, no, no. We actually think that the road is a lot more wide than what Jesus said. 35:38 - Speaker 2 Oh, 100%. And I think we see that in a few different ways, in a few different areas, one of that, obviously, being the statistic that I just gave you, you know, very alarming rate. The other is one, and I just interviewed, keep bringing lucas up in this. Uh, I promise I'm not, um, I'm not in, I'm not, I'm not, just like, I'm not a tpusa, you know, faith endorser, like, like, like. 36:04 - Speaker 1 Speaker spokesperson but your defense, it's fresh on the mind. 36:09 - Speaker 2 Yes, it is well lucas and I just just talked and we did an interview for his new book, and his book is called Pagan Threat, and what he did is he did a lot of research and this is what kind of brings that in, where the inclusivity of multiple different things into Christianity, where he is seeing things like crystals, very demonic practices, witchcraft. There are people that call themselves Christian witches now that are in the churches, that are being allowed in the churches, right, and so you have again. It isn't just people going out and wanting these people to be saved, so they're calling them. These are people that are in the doors of the churches now. Then again, I just warn the pastors and church leaders to know your people, shepherd them. Well, be bold, scripturally from the pulpit, because that is what changes hearts, the pulpit, because that is what changes hearts. 37:14 Don't and I mean this in all biblical preference, don't coward to the fact of not saying something because you're afraid a tithe might not go in the offering, or you're afraid that, oh, people might leave my church, or you're afraid, oh, I may not be able to build a relationship with them. That is so from the other side, the pit of hell. In my opinion, only the boldness of the gospel brings them to the saving knowledge. It's nothing that we can do, so allow God, don't coward in. That is what I would say. Don't coward, allow God to just profess. And that doesn't mean coward, doesn't mean that you put on a mean face and a sledgehammer in your hand and a Bible in the other and you start whacking people over it. No, no, no, no, no. It just says hey, it's by the Father, through Jesus' blood, done Nothing else, yeah. No, it just says hey, it's by the father, you know, uh, through Jesus's blood, done Nothing else, yeah. 38:18 - Speaker 1 Yeah, dude, yeah, you, I there's 10, a hundred things I want to say, but um, we, um, and just even as a family, we opened back up. You know it says where paul's saying really clearly um, you, you believe in your hearts that Jesus is Lord and you confess with your mouth yep, um, so there is. You know that it's like we told the kids, like salvation is actually pretty straightforward, you know, believe, confess, uh, you're saved. Yeah, it's the, it's the daily living out, the sanctification of it and being bold. And when you're talking about that, you remind me a ton of. You know, if someone's listening, a good refresher would be Acts, chapter 3, 4, 5, 6. Going out and you see what God does with what the word calls uneducated fishermen, who are standing up boldly in the synagogues, in the learned, you know academies of the day, and they are just boldly proclaiming and and to the point that the, the intellectuals around them are going, who are these guys? Like how, that guy's just that's a fisherman, like he doesn't know what he's talking about. And so, yeah, that's a few things I was thinking. 39:39 The other thing I was thinking to bring up is you know, I admittedly I, I knew who, I knew what turning point was there? Obviously, their headquarters is actually here in town. Knew what that was, I knew of Charlie Kirk, but I but I'm not going to lie and say that I had ever sat down and really watched the content, let's say. But through this process, you know, because my, my kids are asking questions, their friends are asking questions, right? So we've sat down and we've watched quite a bit of content and I would encourage people who have maybe opinions about some of the stuff to do that as well, to actually watch what was said, to try to figure out, to try to learn what was said, because one of the things very much on the nose of what you're saying, this boldness, this the way we love people. 40:28 But one of the things that I think comes out a lot when Charlie talks to people is he'll he kind of asked this question about well, is it truly loving to not confront error and to graze over error, so like this thing you bring up about, this study of worship, you know, is it truly loving of those in our midst to to just kind of back off and go like, oh yeah, I mean, I guess, if I guess, if you want to work, if you want to worship and get to Yahweh through Islam or get to Jesus through Hinduism, like that's probably okay when Jesus himself goes. No, I am the way, the truth, the life, like there's no other path here. So, again, maybe a big thing. And I would ask you this but is it this idea of you? Know, we've kind of kicked the doors open on what it means to love and what it means to be loving, and I don't even know that that's a new strategy, but you brought this up already. 41:35 But Genesis, chapter three right, the enemy is going well, did God really say and I feel like that's kind of the same thing going on Well, did God really say that the way is narrow? Like, did God really say that he was the only way? And then we're being challenged with like well, like well if yeah, but if you tell someone differently, like you are an unloving person and doesn't God want you to love everybody, yeah, so yep, so we've got this problem where the enemy and all of the little demon minions are all incredibly good lawyers and they know how to argue their case and we're just not prepared. 42:20 - Speaker 2 Yep, yep, no, you're dead on. And again, to bring up Genesis 3, this is nothing that think about that whole entire thing. Adam and Eve were perfect before the fall. I mean, sometimes that's easy to forget because we forget that part, it's easy to go right to the fall, and yet they were duped by the temptation of the devil, and we know that and we see that. And so for us to not realize that that same thing can happen today again, like I said, almost on steroids, right In a hyper, you know, media, digital world that everything is in front of us, we can put one device down and go to the news, just watch the news, and then you're informed or influenced by their opinion, which is every news, it doesn't matter. 43:13 Fox, cnn to, you know, newsmax, to whatever, it doesn't matter. Somebody's opinions in there, it's not, it's not. Hey, the car wrecked in the, in the ditch, it's well, let me tell you why the car wrecked. You know it's somebody's opinion, right, and so when somebody's opinions there, then we can be persuaded into that. And to, to, to, to your point of of taking something that we might see as a clip of whoever, whether that is Charlie or, uh, somebody else and we're like oh, we're going to form an opinion from that clip, although we didn't have the entire context or we didn't have the 10 other uh speeches, so maybe he got that speech wrong, maybe he didn't do well in that speech, but the other nine he did great. 44:00 Again, these people aren't pastors, they're striving to be Christian brothers and sisters in Christ. We have to remember that, right To the standard that they're held and that doesn't mean that we're not trying to hold them to a high standard, but there are certain standards that maybe we shouldn't be holding them to. That doesn't mean that they're not great brothers and sisters in Christ and being used by God. So it's just. Again, I think what you said was so good in knowing the context study and such a good word to pastors and church leaders. 44:35 Because, again, back into what I do and what I see is that you see people, you see shepherds and that's what I'll call them who are just uninformed and sometimes it's because, well, I don't want to be informed and I say I get it, but that's probably some of the dirty that you need to be informed, for you to lay your time down so that you tell the other person and the sheep don't go there, stay away from this. I've seen that and I'm not saying doing something sinful. I'm just saying, even in the news, don't like listen, you don't need to go there, I'll inform you. I've been there. There are certain things that we can do that with. Yeah, yeah, that's that's kind of how I would say that, if that makes sense, yeah. 45:26 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I can hear behind the words you're saying. You have stories, oh. 45:32 - Speaker 2 I do. 45:37 - Speaker 1 I've tried saying you have stories? Oh, I do. I'm trying to be very careful. I I respect that about you and I know I know you have, I know you have a lot of stories, you write stories, you embed yourself in story, like you, you. So I hope that people listening will, um, will recognize, um, that you are kind of in the trench trenches of this thing and that they will listen, um, they will, um, you know, allow, allow ourselves to be convicted and allow ourselves to be, you know, isn't it so true, Jesse, that, like we're, it's okay to be curious, like we have to go, listen to people and try to understand these things and, um, like you said, like you know, be careful about where your curiosity leaves you for sure, have a good wisdom around you, have a good counsel around you, have mentors and mothers and fathers in the faith that you trust. Yes, yes, yes, all those things. But also, it's okay to be curious, it's okay to try to understand what's going on. 46:32 - Speaker 2 Don't forsake the church, let's put it that way Like, remember, Jesus didn't send them out one by one, he sent them out in pairs. Um, we have strength in our brothers and sisters and, uh, use community, use that to build you up and sometimes even to go out in some of those to create that dialogue. Um, always invite dialogue, having conversations, even in theological perspectives. I'm not somebody that subscribes I'll say it that way to infant baptism, but I will listen to all kinds of people talk about it and I love to have discussions about that. So, do it, do it. 47:12 - Speaker 1 Yeah, Baptism, oh my gosh. You know I just found out in the past couple of years that my grandmother took my brother or sister and I to be baptized and didn't tell my mom and dad. 47:24 - Speaker 2 What. 47:27 - Speaker 1 I thought everybody knew that that happened, but nope, I just literally found out. Oh wow, yeah grandma took us. 47:33 - Speaker 2 Wow yeah, grandma, that's another, that's another pod, that's a whole nother yeah, that's a whole nother. 47:40 - Speaker 1 A whole, nother thing. Do you so as someone who's immersed in media and you know you're interviewing and talking about people, about their books and their songs, everything do you have any less shooting from the hip like book recommendations or maybe media that someone who is curious could dive into, that maybe has helped you or challenged you? What would you say? 48:00 - Speaker 2 Man you are. You are asking me for the shooting from the hip. Um, I'll be like I've mentioned. I would recommend cause I I just went through a handful of it. Uh, because of time, I don't always get to read every book that's out there. I would recommend because I just went through a handful of it. Because of time, I don't always get to read every book that's out there, but Lucas Miles' book, it's somewhere. 48:23 - Speaker 1 You said Pagan. 48:24 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah Threat, pagan Threat. Sorry, there we go, got it right. Pagan Threat. It's just a good one, because I think it does hit on some of the things that were like wow, this is pretty prevalent. And again, like I said, with the media culture and it being pushed on, uh, I see it everywhere, uh, in the things that I I look at, and so I I resonate with what Lucas is saying. I think that's a great book to check out. 48:51 That's a great book to check out Media-wise man, I'm a big fan of Ray Comfort's stuff, so always checking out kind of what Ray's doing, and I love it because he is kind of always out there giving the gospel in situations. So those are two that if you don't always check out because they're solid yeah. 49:14 - Speaker 1 I love that and we're going to link those are two that you know that if you don't always always check out because they're solid, yeah, I love that and we're going to link. We already said this, but we're going to link several articles that you mentioned in the notes and then, if someone wants to interact with you more, they could tweet you. 49:29 - Speaker 2 they could Twitter you, Text me, whatever it's called. 49:33 - Speaker 1 Yep, that's so cool. It's called Yep, that's so DME. 49:35 - Speaker 2 Yeah, my email is at the end of my thing, so, yeah, feel free to reach out. Yeah, definitely. 49:42 - Speaker 1 Well, bro, thanks so much for talking and I could I could see you and I checking back in on a regular basis about certain things that are going on. You know, even as this podcast is named Passing the Pulpit, you know, just talking through different things. That's going on in the church, going on in the pastorship, going on in the world of shepherding, so I hope that we can do this again and I really do. Thank you for your time and your perspective and I'm so glad you got to go participate in the memorial and you got to be a part of that and it's enviable, right. Like you got to. 50:18 You got to be in a hundred thousand person worship service, right it's historic is the word that I use, like I only have one experience at a conference in colorado springs where carrie jobe came actually to a youth conference and she did the worship and I want to say there was 4,000 of us and I remember thinking in that moment if this is one one-hundredth of what heaven is like, I'm blown away. 50:48 - Speaker 2 Exactly, exactly, no, I resonate with that so much. And when you hear Carrie Jobe in a situation in a room like you described, right Singing the Revelation song Yep, that was it You're just like you don't even sing. You kind of just sit there in awe, and not in awe of her, but in awe of just God. And, like you say, the anticipation that this is not my home Yep, this is not my home, and I cannot wait to be able to do this and to really feel what it means like to be in the presence of Jesus, face to face. Amen, yeah. 51:29 - Speaker 1 I think that's probably a great point. To end on Always. We'll end it and move on to the next thing. Brother, I hope you have an amazing day Likewise. I appreciate you, man. Thank you. Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with another pastor or ministry leader who you think might benefit from this conversation. And if you're looking for more tools and resources to help you preach and lead with confidence, be sure to check out sermoncentralcom slash podcast. Sermon Central is the largest online resource hub for pastors and ministry leaders. From illustrations to outlines to media, you'll find everything you need to preach and lead effectively. So check out sermoncentral.com/podcast, where you'll even find a special podcast listener discount on our membership pricing. Check it out and stay tuned for our next episode. You