Fuel for the Journey: Staying Passionate in a Long Obedience

00:02 - Speaker 1 One of my most favorite things in ministry is getting to learn from those who've gone before us, who have more wisdom, more experience, more knowledge, more understanding and especially in pastoral leadership. This is just an absolute gift when you can find someone who has decades of experience and different contexts, different roles, different callings, and that they can share from their wisdom. And that's exactly what we get today in this podcast episode with Pastor Ronn Read, who's done ministry in many different contexts across multiple decades in multiple different states. He's worked for the man in the Mirror Ministries and even now he's transitioning to his own consulting firm. So I hope you enjoy the podcast today. There's tons of amazing nuggets of wisdom in there, some laughs and some hard stories about hard-fought victories. So enjoy. Hey, welcome back. 01:05 We're back with the podcast here. This is Passing the Pulpit. I'm Matt Redder with SermonCentral. Today I've got Ronn Read. Ronn, it's good to have you. Would you take a couple minutes to share who you are, what you've done, what you're working on currently, what your history in pastoral ministry has looked like, anything you want to share with us? We're all game. 01:25 - Speaker 2 Certainly. Yeah. Well, thank you for the opportunity to be part of this podcast, and especially in helping young pastors. That's certainly my goal as well. I actually started out as a young pastor. I was 24 years old when I took my first senior pastorate and that was good, because at 24, I knew everything. So it was a very positive first step and I was in that city for 10 years. We grew our family there. We were definitely builders. 01:58 As far as building my family, I had four of my five kids were born in Quincy, quincy, illinois, and pastored there with just a great church, great family church, and we really just enjoyed our time there. But there came a time where it was very obvious it was time to move on and to go. Now one thing I need to say is all four churches that I pastored I came in after they fired the previous guy, including that one. So I came in and kind of rebuilt the health and rebuilt the family and made church fun. We put the fun in dysfunctional, so it was, as the saying goes, ended up going from there up to Milwaukee, wisconsin, pastored a German Baptist church. Very interesting, about 40% of our congregation was first-generation German immigrants since World War II and so that was not only a pastoral experience but a cultural experience for my family and for myself. Even though I was the quote-unquote lead pastor I think I was about number seven or eight on the totem pole of the actual so I had to learn not only how to lead from there's a book called Lead from the Second Chair I had to lead from the back row, and it was an interesting experience of learning how to do that. 03:27 Then I moved from there and again that church had fired their previous pastor and I got a call from a church in Tacoma Washington. They had just fired their pastor. They heard through denominational lines that I had a niche of helping churches recover. So we moved out to Tacoma Washington and I was there for seven years and a good church experience, but ended up being a not-so-good that I'll share about later as we talk. 03:59 From there I became an executive pastor of a large church in Central California, started out with a different title than I had been promised, and by day three I realized I don't think this is my calling and so we stayed there for three years, but it was a rough three years. Then I ended up with my fourth full-time church in the Chicago suburbs, as you're wearing that Cubs cap. We were Cubs fans during that season and we were there for—I was in the church for just over seven years. Then I accepted a call to man in the Mirror as the area director for man in the Mirror Ministries and I've been with them for just under 14 years now, so pastored for a total of 38 years and now doing this role as chaplain for the last 14 years and about to start a new leg of my ministry with church health consulting. So that's me. 05:01 - Speaker 1 Wow, for being a pastor. You really said that concisely. You, as you know, usually if you give pastors, uh, an opportunity to speak, you might as well buckle up and get some popcorn. Yeah well, but uh well. So if I'm hearing you right, so pastor to chaplain to consultant, um, what is, what's the difference? Difference? Someone listening might be thinking oh, I've thought of, I think about pastoring, I think about chaplaincy, what's the difference between those two? As someone who's done both, what would you say? 05:37 - Speaker 2 Well, definitely the difference between pastoring and chaplain. As pastor you're wearing a bunch of hats. I've always said you know you're spinning 17 plates at a time and when you see one wobble, that becomes the emergency. You've got to deal with it. And it's a constant of dealing with the multiple areas, even if you have staff. Well, now you're dealing with staff and so there's never a time that you're not doing some sort of ministry to somebody. 06:11 And in chaplaincy it's really more of an on-call. The emergencies might be a lot deeper, but it's a lot more of being on-call than on-duty, more of being on call than on duty. But as chaplain it still is a lot of the pastoring, the shepherding role. That's what I've been doing with the National Field Staff for the last almost seven years of just being their shepherd, their mentor, their discipler, sometimes their counselor, but an entirely different role and, to be very honest, I've missed the pastoring. I should have added on my list of resumes I've been an interim pastor in five different churches over the last 15 years and this most recent one that I'm still sitting in the office of this church right now. I've been here for almost eight months and I've enjoyed being pastor again, being that chief of staff and being the shepherd as well as the preaching every Sunday. As chaplain I didn't get to do that, so I enjoy bringing the Word every week. 07:21 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, thanks for that honest take. And as an interim pastor, you know I've had a lot of pastors who have mentored me, have entered into that role, like as an interim. What's that like? To go into a church knowing you know you're? I may be saying it Ronn. I may be saying it Ronn, but your only real job here is to encourage, strengthen, help people find forgiveness and freedom and healing. I mean, that's got to be amazing. Is that a fun gig? 08:02 - Speaker 2 You know, in all honesty, my actual title here was transition pastor. Once again they had fired the previous pastor. Actual title here was transition pastor. Once again, they had fired the previous pastor and so my job was to bring the church to a place of health in preparation for their next full-time pastor, who we just called, literally last Sunday. We approved the vote and he approved the call. So this has actually been a lot different than when I was the full-time lead pastor in a church. 08:29 One of the things is I had carte blanche of fix this. That we know we have these issues, we know that this is what's happened, so fix this. And that's been a challenge to identify, to do the poking and the prodding and then to do the surgery where it was necessary or to do the amputation where it was necessary. But some of that has been over the 40 plus years of experience of pastoring. I have a little bit more of an insight and ability to see those situations, and some of it is also the fact that I'm leaving. I got nothing to lose. 09:09 My job is to make it healthy for the next guy. So there's been a good balance. I'm not a Mr Meany, but I've been able to say from the pulpit. This has got to stop. There'll be no more of this, whether it's gossip, backbiting or just general complaining, I'm able to, in my role, say no more. I think I would have said it anyway even if I were to be the ongoing pastor, because we can't have that disunity in the church. But I definitely had some boldness, knowing that I got nothing to lose. 09:47 - Speaker 1 Yeah, that makes a ton of sense and I think that might've been my suspicion a little bit, that a person would be able to be a little more bold in their pastoring, preaching, guidance, leadership, but yeah, to hear say it, that makes that makes so much sense. I this probably isn't true, but it feels somewhat like almost being in my mind, almost like being a grandparent, like you get to, you kind of get to come in and and sometimes you get to, you can be, you get to be fun grandparent, and sometimes you just get to sit the kids down and say, hey, kids, like this is this is what we do, this is what we don't do, this is what we're about and that's that. 10:27 - Speaker 2 That is a great analogy because that's exactly what I do as a grandpa is I'm able to sugar them up and send them home when they need that, or I'm able to sit them down and say this is not the character that we want to see in you. And so yeah, I'm able to. I maybe I should change my title from church health consultant to church health papa. 10:49 - Speaker 1 Yeah Well, you could always beta test that and see which title gets you more. More on this. But yeah, so we um. Well, that's a great lead into our conversation today, which is titled fuel for the Journey, staying Passionate and a Long Obedience. So, staying passionate and a long obedience, and in your story you've had many different I'm not going to say iterations but you've had different calls, different assignments, different cultures, different churches. I mean, honestly, moving from Illinois over to California, that's definitely a different culture, that's a different vibe altogether. 11:29 - Speaker 2 But yeah, I'm really excited. 11:31 - Speaker 1 Georgia yes, sir, yeah, you've gone, yeah, you've you've. You've been here and back again, I would suppose. So, yes, really excited to hear from you. And what, um, just like carte blanche. When you hear this idea of a long obedience in a similar direction, what does that even mean to you, or what does that invoke in you? What do you think about when you hear that statement? 12:06 - Speaker 2 Peterson Along. Obedience in the Same Direction it's a book that I have read through a couple of times because it does deal with our Christian life is not a sprint, it is a marathon. It is the training that is involved. I've run a couple of marathons so I can tell you the training that is involved and then just the grueling aspect sometimes grueling but also there is no greater reward in running a marathon or a half marathon than crossing that finish line. Well, I haven't done that yet in ministry, but I know what's coming, and so what comes to mind when you think about a long obedience is that a large part of it is the training there's also when you're running an actual marathon. You got the crowd that is cheering you on. I ran the Chicago marathon and every neighborhood had crowds cheering on. You got this. 12:57 My standard answer when somebody would yell out you got this. I would say I'm not sure I want this, and sometimes that's how it is in pastoring I'm not sure I want this, but the fact that there's the crowd cheering you on, and then there's just that hope, knowing that the finish line is coming and I will cross that. So that long obedience in the same direction is exactly that. It is just realizing this isn't going to be a sprint. This isn't something that I'm, you know. 13:29 I jokingly say that I love to paint houses interior and exterior, because you know you're going to get done, you know you're going to finish, whereas in ministry you're never done. So it requires that mindset. This is a long obedience. This is not something that I'm going to be able to just say I've had it. You know, one of the things that kept me running marathons was I always had either my daughter or my son running alongside of me saying every step of the way you got this, you can do this, let's do it. And that's been a constant in ministry as well the voice of the Holy Spirit, certainly, but also the voice of mentors and encouragers that have said you got this, you can do this. 14:16 - Speaker 1 Yes, amen. You just gave us an absolute treasure trove of good metaphors for ministry with the marathon imagery, running with someone else, imagery, encouragement, I mean. There's so many amazing principles there for being in ministry which kind of I mean for me kind of begs this question about as you look back upon when you were originally first getting into ministry, you probably think about things some things the same, but probably a lot of things differently. What did you believe about your calling and the working out of being a pastor in your 30s that you now see differently? Or how would you maybe even a different way to say that would be that you now see differently, or how would you maybe even a different way to say that would be? Is there anything you would tell your 30-year-old self that you now know to be true? 15:11 - Speaker 2 Yeah, my calling early on was and what I would say to my 30-year-old self I thought I had to do everything. I literally was. When I stepped into the first church I felt like if I didn't do it it wasn't going to get done. That's the pride side, I guess, but it's also just the calling side. I thought, as opposed to learning, I put a lot of pressure on myself to learning. You know, I put a lot of pressure on myself, I put a lot of, you know, not only that I had to do it, it had to be done with excellence. I mean, I cut my spiritual teeth, my training teeth, on the mindset that if it's going to be for the Lord, it's got to be number one, it's got to be done with excellence. And I still believe that. But that doesn't mean I have to do it. 16:05 So I would tell my 30-year-old self delegate, delegate, delegate. And the other thing tied right in with that is not just to give somebody the role, give them the authority, but empower them to do that. That's a word that has just been very Ronn, not only in this role that I have right now. The staff that was here was not empowered to do anything. They were driven, they were led but they weren't empowered, and there's a lot of frustration there. So I think that you know that would be what I would say is learn how to give over the roles through empowerment and teaching and training, and then be that marathon runner with them. We're in this together, but I'm going to be encouraging you every step of the way. 16:52 - Speaker 1 That's amazing. Yeah, 100%, that's so true. And did you so, thinking back to did your views or on your own family, did those things change? And I guess what I mean by that is as you think about being a younger pastor. Like you said, you figured you had to do everything and that probably meant that at times the family didn't get as much time as maybe the church did, or things like that. I think a lot of us have dealt with that. But how did that change for you? Or do you remember a specific moment where you kind of felt like— oh boy, yeah, do I ever. 17:30 - Speaker 2 I've been pastoring for probably— I was probably in my eighth, ninth, maybe even tenth year. We were remodeling a building. We were taking an old elementary school and converting that into our church and I was the general contractor. I had just gotten my doctorate in family and marriage counseling. So I was counseling a lot. We had two services Sunday morning, one Sunday night, one Wednesday night and I was teaching three hours of a Bible institute every Monday night. 18:02 So I drove home one time and because I always tell this story with you know I hope I get the glimmer of humor in it Because I have a doctorate in family ministry I catch things that a lot of guys would have missed. You know it would have gone over most guys' heads. When I drove home one day and all of my clothes had been thrown from the upstairs bedroom down onto the driveway, I caught on that hey, something's Ronn here. And my wife was not known for her subtlety at all and she basically said if you're going to be married to the church, go live with it. And it was my wake-up call. 18:41 You said was there a moment? That was my moment. I literally called the chairman of the deacons. I said I'm not going to be there this Sunday or for the next three Sundays. We're taking a trip and we were scheduled the trip two weeks from then, but I took two weeks early and we went and spent family time. I restored my mental and emotional and spiritual, but especially my marital health and came back with a new resolve. But yeah, that was my moment of realizing I was cheating my family, and I think it was. I think it was. Hudson Taylor said what good does it do for a man to gain the whole world and lose his family? And I realized that many years into my ministry I was losing my family, and so it became a very critical turning point for me that they come first God, first, then family, then the church. 19:39 - Speaker 1 Yep, thank you for sharing that. Just honestly, you sparked something for me when you were speaking about, you know, when we're younger and we're getting into ministry, I think we I know I did I'll just speak personally but I had a very idealistic vision of being a Eugene Peterson type pastor and having that type of testimony type pastor and having that type of testimony. But what you're saying is so powerful because it's like if we're going to have any type of conversation about a long obedience in the direction of ministry, you must deal with kind of this thing that we're talking about right now, which is your commitment to your home and your family. And when we think about even the qualifications laid out for leadership in Timothy and Titus, it gives us this insight and this glimmer into the abilities to lead and manage your own home. So, yeah, I'm not saying anything profound or anything that a lot of people would be like. Yeah, we already knew that this is nothing new, but what you're saying is so important as a reminder and as kind of a kick in the pants to check that reality on the regular if you're going to be in ministry. 20:58 How's my relationship with my wife, how's my relationship with my kids? You know what does date night look like? Do I take my kids out? All these questions. Does that come up a lot for you when you're talking with younger pastors? And how do? 21:11 - Speaker 2 you approach that it does, and that's one of the things that I do try to teach young pastors is that I made the commitment I'll say we, because it was along with my wife we had supper together as a family every night that it was possible. We sat down at the dinner table and we had supper. Even when my kids were older and starting into sports, I'd talk with their coach and let them know we're going to bring hamburgers and we're all going to be sitting over in the parking lot and she or he is going to come join us. It'll be quick, but they've got to be part of this family meal and we did that during their entire growing up years. We also you know you talk date night. Not only did I make that with my wife, I took my kids out on dates. You know. It became a thing where, and especially as they started dating, they had to date me first. They had to take me out to the same place. They were going to take the girlfriend, the boyfriend and, um, you know it was a teaching moment for them, but I wanted them to know I am, I'm your confidant, I'm not just your dad, I'm your confidant. You can share anything with me. If we can work on it together and fix it, we're going to. But that was they knew. My kids knew they were number one, my wife number one and them number two. But as a result of that I didn't have the typical PK. 22:36 All five of my kids have served in full-time ministry. My son was a missionary to South Africa for almost 11 years. I've got a son that travels with Mercy Me now. He was a youth pastor and a songwriter. I've got a son that was a youth pastor for many, many years and still continues to write curriculum for churches. My daughter is a bookkeeper. My oldest daughter was a children's pastor until her daughter had health issues that caused her to have to resign. So I'm very blessed. I will say that I attribute most of that to their mother, but I think I had a little part in it as well. 23:15 - Speaker 1 Yep, wow, that in itself is a master, could be a master class, right? Because I think so many you know, I know I mean I have my own story about being young in ministry with young kids and as many pastors I know do, but yeah, that's a big point. So hopefully even hearing that maybe encourages someone. 23:36 - Speaker 2 Just a reminder, like I said, a bit of a kick in the pants to make sure that they're paying attention to that that's also a communication with the church leadership to let them know I love you guys and my role here is obviously the top priority, but not above my family. And so you know that has to be communicated and bought into because there's always going to be people who say where's the pastor? You know I'm not going to show up for every single event because it might interfere with something that my family is doing and that again has to be communicated and bought into. And that's a biggie, that's a toughie. 24:18 - Speaker 1 Don't you think that has a lot to do with delegation too, though? Yep, don't you think that has a lot to do with delegation too, though? Because when you feel like you have to be at everything, then you're not empowering other leaders, you're making the ministry all about yourself, because, well, again, you're just showing people, well, yeah, I've got to be the one at everything. But when you take that stand and say, yeah, I don't need to be there, we've got other Our you know, we've got other pastors here who are amazing, or these volunteers, you can, they can run it. I don't need to be here. Yeah, critical, yeah, how do you think? Uh, is it? Do you have any tips or tricks for staying passionate in ministry for the long term? Like, how has, how has that kind of ebbed and flowed for you over the years? 25:15 - Speaker 2 Well, the number one thing is that I have always had and always will have the continued belief that the church is still the most important institution for life change and for cultural change. 25:22 I think it was E Stanley Jones that said the church has many critics but no rivals. E Stanley Jones has said the church has many critics but no rivals. And so I have to be able to communicate to myself on a regular basis what I'm doing matters, whether it's in a small church in the country, whether it's in a mega church in an urban area, that what I'm doing, what we are doing as pastors in the church, is still the most important role. You know pastoring used to be way up high in the respect and the integrity and it's taken some hits. You know there's been a lot of kicks on the integrity of pastors, rightly deserved in some cases. But I think there still is a mindset in the community, but especially it's got to be in our church and in our own minds and our families what I'm doing matters, it makes a difference. So that's kept me motivated all along, that the church is still the most important institution for life change. 26:23 - Speaker 1 Yeah, have you had seasons where you know that belief was more difficult to access? Have you had seasons where you know you were really fighting for it? 26:37 - Speaker 2 Fighting for the church or fighting my own? 26:41 - Speaker 1 uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, not the church as much as your own internal. You know thoughts um struggles, ups and downs, depression, anxiety, whatever you might call it. You know. 26:55 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I re, I really wouldn't say that I. I'm not a person who gets depressed, but I I went through where you know. We put ourselves on that altar, we're Isaac on the altar and our ministry and there came a time where the only way I can put it is I kind of climbed off that altar and I started thinking out of frustration, out of discouragement, out. I wasn't being treated this way and I wasn't getting this and in hindsight it was definitely a lot of the flesh, but we weren't being paid well. We were going through a season of I had three kids in college, it was expensive, it was just—so. As a result, I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing for the Lord. I started doing things for me and I'll not belabor this story, but I walked in on an elders' meeting that I hadn't been invited to and they're not planning pastor appreciation day when they're having those kind of elders meetings and there was a situation. I had given them enough ammunition that they were frustrated over something I was doing and I finally threw my hands up what do you want me to do about it? And one of the guys said I think you need to resign, and it wasn't a resignable offense? It definitely was not something, but there was enough, and so I said fine, you got it. I resigned and those bums accepted my resignation. I figured they'd say, oh no, no, no. 28:42 Three days later I'm standing on my back deck that had this amazing view of the Olympic Mountains and Puget Sound and a golf course that was being built. That was a PGA champion golf course, and I couldn't see any of that. I just saw my deck needed to be painted before I could sell my house, because I'm going to obviously have to sell my house. So I got my wire brush, I start scraping that deck and the paint's coming off, because I'm so mad it's coming off easily. Long story short, I ended up getting the oil-based stain. I'm scraping, I'm staining and I'm not focused on what I'm doing at all and, as a result, I ended up literally painting myself in a corner. I have about two square feet of this deck in Washington state where it's humid, it's not going to dry for three days and I'm trapped and I literally shook my fist in my anger. 29:27 I shook my fist in the face of God and said how dare you? I've served you faithfully for 25 years and Matt, as clear as a bell. I can't say I've heard the voice of God very often, but I heard his rebuke right then. No, I can't say I've heard the voice of God very often, but I heard his rebuke right then. No, you served you for 25 years. 29:45 You see, I grew up without a dad. My dad died when I was five months old, so I didn't hear those attaboys good job and I needed that. And so, even though I didn't really think I was purposely seeking it in ministry, I was. I enjoyed hearing good job, and so God continued that conversation. He said get over it, get above it, get on with it. And I won't go into the rest of the story. 30:11 But that's exactly what I did. I got above it. It was the thing where you got to get back on that altar. You got to get back to, to where ministry is all about me. The Lord said not about you. You're my servant and I needed to get that mindset once again. And so there was a 180, just like when I got saved, I did a 180. This was a 180 of getting back into ministry with the right heart attitude. We always said to our kids obedience is doing what you're told when you're told, with the right heart attitude. And I got that message loud and clear Do what you're told when you're told, and do it with the right heart attitude. So I came through that time where I needed to have the reawakening, the recalling that this isn't about you, this is about me. 31:06 - Speaker 1 Wow, do you think, have you ever thought to yourself that you know, this type of like conflict, this moment with God is actually a really important one. That pastor, a pastor, anybody like we it seems to me that we need to have these kind of mountaintop conflict moments in our lives and and you said it really well like to be reoriented, to be reconfigured, um, to get re-energized. What do you think? Like you, agree, disagree? What do you think about that? 31:40 - Speaker 2 oh, I, I think it's got to—I guess this is what I would say If we don't do it on our own, God will make sure it gets done, Whether it is through an elder meeting, whether it is through a crisis experience in our own lives. You know, I guess I'll return to that statement If I don't do it, God will make sure it gets done. Why he's called me, he's equipped me, he's given me what I need. Now he wants me to use it for his glory. 32:14 I literally just read a story of an IBM kind of new into the company and he was given a project and, long story short, it failed. And so he came into the office of his supervisor and said you know, I realized I need to turn in my resignation. And the guy said are you kidding me? We just invested $5 million in your lesson that you need to learn. You'll continue to learn it, and I think that's what God says to us. I'm not benching you. I've invested a lot in you, Even in what you need to learn through this failure. Now get up and you put it to practice. 32:52 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, amen. I personally have some type of conviction about other leaders or ministry leaders, generally speaking, but I, I seem to. I can be careful how I say this, because I don't want to, I don't want to. You know, I don't want to say it the Ronn way, but I would say I have some type of conviction about you know, really kind of my respect going up, or my, my willingness, my ability to follow someone who I know has really wrestled and suffered through different aspects of life and is still standing. I mean, I think there's something to be said for that. I think there's a lot of growth that happens in adversity and suffering and I even love the way you said it. 33:39 I have probably one of my favorite books from seminary was literally called Shaking a Fist at God. It was a commentary on the book of Job. So when you said you found yourself in the corner of a deck shaking your fist at God, I just, you know that's imagery comes to mind of these moments where we get to that place in our faith and I kind of again, I don't even know that I don't. This isn't like some deep theological, biblical thing I can argue, but there's, I have some conviction that that getting to that place is such an important journey for all of us. And you know obviously you can, you can be. How does the word say it? It says you know obviously you can be. How does the word say it? It says you know be angry but in your anger, do not sin right. 34:27 So there's definitely a way to be angry and to be righteous at the same time, and I think you know life is hard and there are, you know, weeks, months, years of difficult adversity. 34:41 - Speaker 2 So yeah, so. So when I interviewed for the man in the mirror position, uh, there were five different guys that interviewed you down at the office in Florida. One of them was Pat Morley, and when I sat next you know, sat across the desk from him he said Ronn, I just have one question have you ever been broken? And as I started crying he goes okay, you answered the question, you want to tell me the story, but I think that that's a question that is going to be asked of every single pastor, every single staff person have you ever been broken? Because if we've not been broken, we do this in our own strength, and if we do it in our own strength, we're going to be broken, we're going to find that failure. So the brokenness, you know it's critical for our growth and really for our effectiveness. Can't pastor without being broken. 35:35 - Speaker 1 There you go. So then, how do you encourage a younger pastor then to embrace the brokenness? You know what I'm, you know what I'm saying. Like, how do you encourage someone to joyfully, uh, willingly? This is sad. This is an insane thing to try to encourage someone about yeah yeah, you know, and james, the book of james says consider it all joy, and it's just like, how do we encourage young pastors, young leaders, to really embrace those seasons of adversity? Yeah, I mean, what does that look like in your life? Or what have you said? 36:14 - Speaker 2 How do? 36:14 you do it. There is some paraphrase of the scriptures I don't know which one it is, but I read it a long time ago that James passage says when you have a problem, throw a party, because God will show up. And I think there's great wisdom in that that. Hey, I'm having a problem. Praise the Lord, because that means he's teaching me something. There's going to be a lesson that comes from this he's going to give. You know there's going to be a lesson that comes from this and it really. 36:41 You ask the question how do I teach a young pastor or you know, just because of Charlie Kirk's assassination, this came up in a conversation with a young person that when you understand the sovereignty of God and do we ever understand the sovereignty of God that when you begin to grasp that God is sovereign, nothing comes to me that didn't pass through his hands first. 37:06 And if it passed through his hands to me, that wasn't, you know, it wasn't an act of aggression or anger or even frustration. It was saying I have something for you, but you got to learn this lesson first. So that's what I've taught my grandkids, that's what I teach younger pastors, it's what I just recently taught in the church that when the problems hit, throw the party, because God's going to show up at it. He's going to be there to say I have a purpose in this. Just hold on, trust me, rest in me. And that's another word that I don't think I comprehended in my 20s and 30s, 40s and 50s. I think I'm beginning to get it now of what it means to abide and what it means to rest in Christ, to know that this didn't happen by accident. This isn't just a circumstantial event. God's got this and he's got me in the midst of it, yep. 38:07 - Speaker 1 Yep. So you just hit on something I really wanted to ask you about and you mentioned you kind of said it like I've learned this and I'm learning this, what you know, what are some other things. Because here's the deal, you know, we, we need to have the wisdom shared with us. We need, you know, leaders who've gone before us to to look back and say, hey, here's, here's what's worked for me, here's what hasn't worked for me. Um, and not that, not that it has to be, not that I have to do everything that Ronn did, but to learn from you, learn from you. So, yeah, what are, you know, as you think about it, but rhythms you may have developed over the years. We talked about family and marriage a bit, so those are some good rhythms, but what are some other things you've done to really keep yourself healthy, focused, you know, focused? What would you say about that? 39:02 - Speaker 2 Yeah, Well, there was a season where I went through. I was fasting every Monday Again, because I needed to focus on the spiritual food as opposed to physical food. I needed to. At that point I was again carrying a lot of weight in the pastoral role. So I was fasting and one of my kids I can't remember which one came to me and said Daddy, please stop fasting. We don't like you when you're this way. So I had to learn. 39:35 That was not the best thing for my family life. But you talk about seasons or different times in life. I actually have a message I'm trying to develop into a book that's based on Joshua, chapter 4. The stones were brought out of the river and set on the bank so that the next generation would ask the question in the King James that says what meaneth these stones, what are the rocks all about? And ultimately the answer was that's when God showed up. So I have seasons in my life where God has shown up, not only my salvation season I was a junior in college when I got saved my calling into ministry, my again season of crisis and renewal but in each of those seasons I think that the number one element in each one of them was where's God? If God is going to show up, where am I looking for him, what needs to be seen in this season, and to actually be able to write that down. So one of the things that I have learned over the years journaling is critical. Now I'm a horrible journaler. I write in my journal when things are going bad, it seems like, but that's where I would then be able to see God. 41:03 But something I had that was almost accidental journaling. I used to handwrite my messages and they were in a little record book and in that book, on the back page, I told you we ate supper together. Well, we'd always take prayer requests as we're eating supper. You know what are you praying about, josh? What are you praying about, tara? And we'd write the prayer requests down and I wrote them in the back of that journal or the back of that record book, and it was my sermon book. 41:33 When my wife passed away just recently, we found her journals. But that led to, in that same box with her journals was all of my record books, and in that book was prayed, this answered at this point. Prayed on this date, answered this date. Prayed this date, answered this date. And we saw, as my family and I were sitting there, going, you know why didn't God answer our prayer about Meemaw and her health. You know, we saw God has answered a lot of prayers. God does answer prayers, and so that I guess the seasons are, or the times where I've learned I was able to look back and say every single situation, even when I didn't see the answer, and even when the answer was no, God answered prayer. And so to hold on to that hope, keep better records of those and know that again I can rest, I can trust, because God is trustworthy. 42:36 - Speaker 1 Yeah, you just reminded me I've got. I also like to journal and it's funny because when things are going well, the journal entry is like woke up at six today, didn't sleep very good, and it's just like inconsequential type stuff right, but it's just kind of the practice of doing it. It is, yeah, keeping a journal, seeing those prayers answered, what a crazy gift to kind of have that longer-term vision for those things. 43:06 - Speaker 2 A couple other things that have helped me sustain. I've gotten much better at my eating, my diet. I always thought I ate in moderation, I was pretty good, but if there's a bowl of M&Ms or a bag of M&Ms they're going to be gone by the end of the day. I mean, that was, that was my moderation. It'd take me all day to eat them, but I was going to eat them. Or a sleeve, a sleeve of Oreo cookies, and if cake was available, I was going to eat. I mean so, even though I convinced myself I was eating pretty good, I wasn't. 43:40 And then I had this health scare that you know led me to having to completely revamp my diet and my exercise and I got to tell you. If I were sitting and talking to a young pastor today, I would emphasize you know, some people make exercise their idol, their body their idol. Don't go, don't go there, but get out and walk. Just walk 30 minutes a day. Just just do something for your health in the exercise way and in your diet. Stop eating the junk food, stop eating the stuff that you know it's bad. Well, it's going to show up. 44:19 It took 70 years for it to show up in my life, but it showed up and now it's my warning and my wake-up call eat better, exercise better, just sleep better, everything about it that I have a goal in mind. I've got 19 grandkids, believe it or not, 19. And my goal is I want to do 19 weddings. Oh, wow. So that means I've got about. If my youngest granddaughter, who just turned seven, gets married when her dad wants her to get married, I've got 20 more years before that's going to happen. 44:56 - Speaker 1 Yeah, that's right. Oh, that's such a good goal and you're right, it's such a good reminder that we are multifaceted beings physical, mental, emotional, spiritual and if you aren't taking care of every facet, you are going to have a problem. 45:14 - Speaker 2 It's like I said earlier if I don't take care of it, God will Right. 45:19 - Speaker 1 That's right. Yeah, I used to have. I had a young man Well, this, this story won't make any sense, but I had a young man in our youth ministry who he would only come to he would only come to church when he was injured Some point I'll never forget. Him asking me like if I thought God was mad at him, and I said I said no, not at all, but I do. Just, you know, there's, there's definitely something to the fact that you know, now that your leg is broken, you're here, um, you know this is a good place to be, but but God's not. You know, God not like purposely having you drive over a rock and break your leg while you're running cross-country because he's mad at you, right? 46:04 - Speaker 2 Well, one of my favorite psalms is Psalm 77, because it's the dark night of the soul, it's the psalmist crying out the six questions of God have you forgotten to be merciful? Where is your mercy? But in verse 3, he says in my distress I sought the Lord. So, knowing that, knowing that, what makes us think that God's not going to allow distress? Because he knows in our distress we'll seek him. And since he wants us to seek him, he's going to allow the distress. But yeah, there's so many of the Psalms, so many of the passages of Scripture where we wake up in the middle of our pain. As a matter of fact, there's an old book, a tremendous book, Sheldon von Aachen, A Severe Mercy, and in that book CS Lewis coined that phrase to say that God, in his, his severe mercy, will wipe out our little g God so that we'll see the one true God. Now it hurts, that was our God, but he'll wipe out that God so that we will see him. 47:13 - Speaker 1 I love that. That's so good. So as we one final question, kind of final thought. We've talked a little bit about younger pastors and younger in ministry. Can you just speak to the person who might be listening right now, who has been in ministry for a little bit but is already thinking? I'm not going to make it no-transcript. 48:21 - Speaker 2 The marathon you got to get somebody that's running with you and I would encourage not your wife yeah, she's running that race too, but she's getting all of your stuff that you're frustrated about and she can't fix it. So find somebody, maybe an older pastor. Maybe there is a deacon or an elder that you can confide in and know that he's trustworthy. Maybe it's going to be from a different church. Get in a pastor's roundtable where other guys are going through this, but maybe they've experienced a step or two before you. They've already run mile 22. They've gone through Heartbreak Hill and so they're able to encourage you. But you got to have somebody. Ministry cannot be done alone not successfully, not effectively. And so find a good mentor, build a good team around you. Get some other guys that will run the race with you and encourage you. In our man in the Mirror ministry, every guy was encouraged. You've got to have an advisory team and they're not people who are doing the ministry, they're people who are ministering to you. And I would really encourage young pastors. This is something I didn't do when I was a young pastor. I didn't have that ministry team. I had a good mentor. I had a guy that I could call up and he would talk me off the ledge, he'd encourage me. But I really needed to build that team of other pastors who could walk through with me. And then I needed my wife. I needed to have her support me and encourage me. But I had to be sensitive to the fact that her calling was different. She was called to be my wife, not the pastor's wife, and so to minister to her, so that she could minister to me, that she could give me the encouragement that I needed. And I would really encourage guys. Your wife and your kids have got to be on your team. They've got to be with you and if they're seeing that, you're losing it. You're losing your drive, your passion. Listen to them, take a break. You know one thing that churches aren't very good at and need to be good at is a sabbatical To give their pastor a time off where he's and not three weeks, that's not long enough, you know. Take an extended time, let him go off and read, but you know it's not just a vacation, but study, read, get into the Bible, get with other people, and then this one's going to sound really strange, but this is one of the areas that I really builds me up. 51:07 I listen to standup comedians. I love Nate Bargatze, I love Brian Regan and as I'm on a long drive, I've got a choice. I could listen to some good podcast like yours right now, and I will, but I also I'll plug in a stand-up comedian and just laugh, because there's not a lot to laugh at at church. You know we get hurt, so we need sometimes just to have that belly laugh. One last thing I'd say know your love language and make sure that you're hearing that love language from the Lord that he's giving to you and you're hearing. I love you, I've called you to this. I'm with you every step of the way. I will never leave you or forsake you Never, ever, no, not ever. And so he's there with you in the battle, so just rest in him. 52:02 - Speaker 1 Wow, that's so good, Thank you. Thank you for sharing all of that, as I think about your kind of next steps. If someone let's just pretend someone was listening to this and they thought man, I'd really love to hear Ronn wisdom on my situation. Do you have an email address or a place someone could contact you as you build out your consulting? I do, yeah. 52:26 - Speaker 2 Actually building the website right now for the consulting. It's up, it's just not live, but somebody can take a look at it and see and it's just simply archconsulting.org. A-r-c-h consulting.org. The reason it's called that is that not only do I live in St Louis, where the St Louis Arch is, but for the last 40 years I've used the arch as an illustration of church life, from having the vision all the way to apathy and dropout of what leads to a church to hit those highs and then start on the leg down Nostalgia, questioning, polarization. So archconsulting.org. But my email address? Very simple Ronn R-O-N-N-R-E-A-D at gmailcom. Perfect. 53:14 - Speaker 1 I'll link. I'll make sure that we put those in the notes for people. Very good, You're making me excited to do another podcast with you here in the future where you through, where you talk us through this arch teaching. 53:29 I would love to do that, yeah, yeah, that'd be so fun. So we'll get that set up and scheduled, but for for now, I want to just thank you for your time, um. I want to thank you too for being in it as long as you have. I think that one of the things as I talk to a lot of young pastors, I know that I've heard from them many of them that they get discouraged when they see some of the things going on in the church and they see, um, I got a good pastor here in town who literally has said to me you know, yeah, my, my three best friends have all left the church and you know it's been a lonely, it's it's it can be lonely. So it's it's important that we are able to look and see that there are people who have run the race and um, and are honest, like you've shared, you know, your story about coming home to your clothes on the Ronn lawn, that's just an honest. 54:23 That's an honest story, right, and it'd be easy enough to pretend that that never happened and to just go and you could say something kind of more vanilla, like yeah, my wife and I, you know, kind of came to a head and I had to, but you did it, you said. You said, yeah, my clothes were on the lawn and that I was. 54:42 - Speaker 2 I was married for 48 years to the assistant. Holy spirit. 54:45 - Speaker 1 So yes, she sounds amazing truly yes, she was amazing yeah, wow, well, I'll be. I'll really look forward to having you back on and thank you so much. 54:56 I look forward to having you back on and thank you so much for your time. I look forward to it. All right, brother. Thank you All right, God bless. Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with another pastor or ministry leader who you think might benefit from this conversation. And if you're looking for more tools and resources to help you preach and lead with confidence, be sure to check out sermoncentral.com/podcast. SermonCentral the largest online resource hub for pastors and ministry leaders. From illustrations to outlines to media, you'll find everything you need to preach and lead effectively. 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