The Gospel in a Swipe: Pastoring the Digital Generation

00:02 - Speaker 1 You know the world has changed so much since many of us have been in youth ministry. So what does discipleship look like in this digital age of scrolls, swipes and split-second attention spans? In this episode, I get to sit down with NextGen pastor Cory Kasperson, who's served for the past 10 years in both youth and young adult ministries, and we talk about the realities of forming deep faith when attention is the new currency in this digital age. Check it out. I think you're going to love it. Cory Kasperson, it's good to see you. Thanks for joining us on the podcast on Passing the Pulpit here today. Like what a joy to have you. 00:50 - Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely I'm excited yeah. 00:52 - Speaker 1 Well, I feel like I know you real well and could probably tell your bio on some level for you. 00:58 - Speaker 2 That is true. What was that like five years ago? 01:02 - Speaker 1 Yeah probably five. Three to five. Yeah, we moved out here Right out of COVID 2000. Yep, Yep, so yeah, but I think it's important that you would take some time to share what you do, who you are, the ministry you oversee. You know anything else pertinent? You're a Seattle fan, oh. 01:18 - Speaker 2 I know You're supposed to leave that out. Well, the Kraken are. Well, the Mariners are doing good right now, which is great. Yeah, a little bit about myself. So I, most importantly, have been married to my wife this summer will be eight years, got two daughters, Kinsley and Chloe. Kinsley is three and a half. Chloe is six months old. 01:43 I am the next-gen pastor here at Redemption Gilbert and I've been in and out of college ministry for the last decade. Started interning when I was 19, 29 right now, and I was loving college ministry. I feel like I could have done it for a long, long time and I still am involved in it. In the last year or so, within the last year, my role got shifted where, yeah, I'm the next gen pastor now. So I help oversee our fifth and sixth grade Ignite ministry, help support the team there. I'm directly pastoring youth week in and week out, and then I am overseeing college and young adult and directly pastoring that in the ways that I'm still trying to navigate in this new role. So have a huge heart for the next gen oration and I believe God's at work in it. Have been a follower of Jesus truly since a very young age and got called to ministry, my freshman year of college in a pretty profound moment with the Lord, and he's just opened a ton of doors to get to this place. 02:52 So, yeah, I love it. 02:54 - Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a cool. You have a. You have a great story. We could do a whole session together on your journey, which would be amazing. Did you imagine yourself as a pastor, you know, when you were in college studying? Was that a thought that was anywhere burst in there, or did that? How did that work? 03:14 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I would say when I was a senior in high school I had the thought of ministry, but I was terrified of it by personality. 03:21 I don't like the spotlight, I don't like talking in front of people, but I remember kind of going like, if I have the chance, the times I do like it is when I get to talk about Jesus and, um, I would say in the back of my mind, I knew ministry would be a calling when I got to college. And then there was like this yeah, it's a whole in a different podcast. But this night, where I just really felt like the presence of the Lord, came down on me and he's like you know what I'm calling you to do and you're scared. And we worked it out and I put all my trust to like take steps in that direction and said you have to open up every door if you want this to work out. And he's been true to his word ever since then and he's opened up every door. So, um, I do not picture doing what I'm doing now. If you would have asked me when I was a freshman in college at that point I would have been very shocked. So, but I love it. 04:10 - Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, that's. The journey is always an interesting one, like you said, like the testimony of how you get from here to there is an amazing for everybody. Everybody's in it. I also want to say a disclaimer. 04:21 This podcast, the hope usually is, uh, someone much older giving, looking back and saying this is what I learned. And I'm giving a disclaimer because I feel like in for us specifically today, talking about this generation, yeah, I think it's wildly important to to get a perspective of someone who's knee deep in it. You're 10 years in it. I think you know how I feel about you. I think you're an amazing pastor. I think you do an amazing job with the young adults, with the youth, with the people around you. You're highly integritous. So I think your perspective is really, really valuable. And so, if anybody heard, you know, oh, 29 years old, what's this guy got to offer? I think you have so much to offer. And again, I want to double down on this idea of like for this specific conversation pastoring a digital generation you know what better sense to get than someone who's in the middle of it? Sure, you know what I'm saying. 05:24 - Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely, I appreciate that you know what better sense to get than someone who's in the middle of it. Sure, you know what I'm saying. 05:27 - Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate that, and I wonder if things were flipped. If you were listening to a podcast of a 60-some-year-old talking about the 18-year-old generation, would that be difficult to hear? 05:42 - Speaker 2 Maybe a little bit. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, maybe a little bit. 05:45 - Speaker 1 Like if that person was saying know, oh, I, I fully understand what's going on and try to be like yeah do you? 05:52 yes so anyway. So that disclaimer all done and out there. I think just just want to throw that out for everybody. But we are talking about today so gospel in a swipe pastoring the digital generation, and when I saw this thought of this, I immediately thought of you. So here we are. So I want to talk first and foremost about this idea of the attention economy, something I know you deal with and you work with and struggle with. So what is that? What does it mean to you? What do you think about it? 06:22 - Speaker 2 Yeah Well, I just it's. I mean, obviously, the days of just like there's one local church in the area and social media is not existent and your youth pastor is one of your or young adult pastors, your primary voice, like those days are over. I mean everybody. You know the social dilemma, jonathan Haidt, like all of his work, it's just all the research is out there, just the digital addiction. Our students, young adults, are being pulled from every which direction. 06:59 And to get attention, like it feels like that's one of the starting places in order to like start discipling people and it's not assumed anymore. 07:10 And it's a navigating, it's a absolutely navigating challenge, like a challenge to navigate, and I think it's important because you know, I read this week that whatever has your attention will ultimately be the thing that brings about your formation. 07:24 It's, you know, we've heard it said that whatever you behold, you become, and so, like, getting at attention and getting our students attention in the next generation on the kingdom of God, the things of Jesus, is just going to be absolutely massively important, and so I don't know which way you want to go in this. But one of the things that I've just been reflecting on and navigating is, I feel like in the past, like just trying to like discover truth was something that was like people personally gave themselves to most popular. And so there's this interesting thing where I feel like I'm seeing truth is often dispensed by whoever is most competent or charismatic. Online. You have charisma and you say some things confidently and things are so just, so easily digestible and assumed in that way and the role of the local church pastor, of kind of being like I go to that person for truth yeah is like that's kind of decreasing statistically in our culture. 08:32 - Speaker 1 So that's just been even another interesting thing to navigate that um that I've seen with gen z and is that, uh, when you're, when you're, are you getting into a little bit to this idea of what do you see different from that now, from 10 years ago? 08:49 - Speaker 2 Oh yeah, absolutely A little bit, yeah. So Tyler Staten, he just came out with a book, familiar Stranger, on the Holy Spirit, and so a lot of these thoughts are out of the beginning of that. But I've been feeling the sense of. I feel like so I am 29. I am like I'm barely millennial, but I'm at the older side of Gen Z. So I feel like seeing the millennial generation process things one way in Gen Z I'm like kind of right in the middle of both, which has been just an interesting age to kind of watch both generations. 09:22 And I feel like in the past, argument and intellect and explanation in the mind was like the doorway to get people into faith. So what he says is like if you get their mind, you'll get their heart. That was older generations and I feel like I saw that when I was getting into college ministry 10 years ago. There's been a radical shift, especially post-COVID, where they want to experience, they want the heart and then if you get the heart then you get the mind. So it's experience before explanation and that's just something that it's been a total paradigm shift, that an encounter with the Holy Spirit often opens up people to the things of God rather than making an intellectual argument to the mind. Yes, so what? 10:12 - Speaker 1 how do you, how do you balance everything you're saying with the response to someone like a charlie kirk and the young people you know who had a quite an intellect, but also, also, he came to you. Yeah, they didn't have to come find him, he came to you. 10:29 - Speaker 2 Absolutely. 10:29 - Speaker 1 And brought the experience, brought the intellect and, kind of let you know, showed up on your campus instead of, like you, having to get into his church. 10:39 - Speaker 2 Oh, absolutely Right. Oh, absolutely Right. Yeah, I mean one of the things like regardless of political views or anything like that that made him so winsome to some was dialogue. 10:50 - Speaker 1 Right. 10:51 - Speaker 2 And people being able to feel like they can ask questions. But there's an embodied experience, isn't it interesting Just like, I think, this next generation with social media, the disembodied relationship and connection. But there's something about encountering truth or trying to discover truth or ask questions in an embodied environment where there's physical space and relationship and there's something that really resonates. I mean, the Charlie Kirk thing is fascinating. I was shocked. Maybe I should have't have been shocked, but how sometimes cultural things happen and it just doesn't make its way into the next generation, maybe in the junior high and high school level. But yeah, the Charlie Kirk thing in particular, like it was felt very deeply in the youth community that I was a part of and it was interesting. It was interesting to navigate, for sure. 11:43 - Speaker 1 Right, yeah, and I I wonder, like we're talking about like soundbites, clips, reels, shorts, all these things that are so pervasive, but yet you end up feeling some kind of connection with these, with the authors of these things, and for better and for worse, right, I mean amen to that, like that's. The struggle is you have, I know you have kids that show up sometimes and they're like, hey, pastor Cory, check out what I saw on TikTok. And you're like, oh no, I know when do we start. 12:13 - Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. 12:15 - Speaker 1 So so another question in the same vein, but do you think the digital culture has made people more open to spiritual things or distracted from them? Yeah, I mean both. 12:27 - Speaker 2 I think the digital culture. I mean one of the wins is it's so in your face. So if you get something of faith that catches trend and I mean the amount of like it's just crazy when I watch, especially with these college students like something will catch kind of like a trend and it has a huge impact on a community and it can create a level of curiosity, especially from people that are very de-churched. It's just like the ability for the gospel in the digital world to like just move quickly is absolutely incredible. So I think it's just one of the things that we've seen is it's cultivated a curiosity that I think is absolutely incredible. So I think it's just one of the things that we've seen is it's cultivated a curiosity that I think is absolutely beautiful. 13:10 But I think in that when you have so much information, so much coming at you, that curiosity can also just be spread so thin and it's just like all scattered. So there's like a scatteredness that I've seen in the next generations, when you're hearing so many things, what's even true? And yet that ability to spread so fast has been what's drawn people in and made people curious. So I think it's definitely made people. I think both. Yeah, absolutely. 13:42 - Speaker 1 Short attentions and deep hunger when I say that, what do you think? 13:47 - Speaker 2 Oh my gosh, how I think the attention span. It's fascinating. I you know, even when you get into college you can start getting into, you know, 30, 35 minute messages. 14:02 - Speaker 1 Please talk to me about just the preaching, mm. 14:04 - Speaker 2 Please talk to me about just the preaching, yeah, and then going into. I mean, I taught like a youth winter camp about a year ago and I was communicating and nobody told me this. Like at 30 minutes their brains are going to shut off, but it was like on the dot. I remember I would have a timer next to me and I'm preaching, preaching, preaching rooms locked in. It was almost like laughable. 14:30 As soon as my timer hit 30 minutes, the room would shift and you just realize there's like a there's an attention span that can only last so long and in a winter camp, like they're coming the most hungry, they are like the most engaged and the most hungry. They are like the most engaged and the max you're going to get is 30 minutes, and yet the hunger in that room was absolutely incredible. I don't think I've ever been in an environment where there was that level of spiritual hunger. And so you have this short attention span with high hunger and then on like a normal youth night, you probably got at most 25 minutes, and yet they need more than 25 minutes of discipleship and what do you do with that? 15:13 it's a tension, um, but I also think it's a tension that you have to work with. I think sometimes it's like people process communicating and it's like you know you, my daughter's five like three. I don't expect her to act five, that's right. 15:30 I have to disciple her at three Right, and I think there's something with the next generation, with attention spans. It's like well, if you know they can only process 15 to 25 minutes of content, then that's what we have, the means that we have to work within, and then you have to get into are there ways of packaging messages that are more helpful, that you can, that you can think through the different avenues of teaching that aren't monologue? All those different mechanisms and tools are just things that we have to lean into. 16:02 - Speaker 1 Yeah, can you go deeper in what you just said? Work with the attention, not against. So how do you do that, like just practically speaking? 16:17 - Speaker 2 So I feel like one of the things that I've, this might be like overly practical, like I don't think it's like solving the attention span for the next generation, but I'm just illustrating sermons well and packaging my content in a way that doesn't like I don't think you have to take away from content depth, but I do think being very specific in the words that I actually want to say in my message and using consistent illustrations all throughout is just a huge deal. I mean what I think statistically, our attention span is not much better than a goldfish, and so like I think of like my teaching blocks and then in between each of those blocks, illustrating extremely well and not using long drawn out illustrations, but like just little commercial breaks throughout my communicating has something. That's been. The feedback that I get is like that. 17:15 That was really helpful yep and so I think there's that, and then I think, uh, not relying everything on just the sermon, equipping small group leaders to ask thoughtful questions and working well in that environment to cultivate real-life conversation is important. 17:38 - Speaker 1 Yeah, so you're again hyper-practical For someone listening who's just wanting like a like a tell me what to do type attitude. So you're saying you have like a teaching point in your, in your message. Yeah, so you have a point and you wrap those points in illustrations yeah, I love what you said like a commercial break yeah, I mean very practically I. 18:00 - Speaker 2 so I have four pages of notes, typically actually for you three. I have five In my mind. I have five very thoughtful illustrations throughout my sermon, one on the very beginning and one for each point. And then I always land the plane with a invitation illustration, and so some of my illustrations in the middle are gonna be funny and maybe up on the front, but I think you can. There's content, you're communicating, but if you can find an illustration where the story captures the point of that content, it can be life-changing for people. And so I'm a minimum five illustrations in my 25-minute sermon and it doesn't feel like I'm telling stories the whole time, but I do think the room was just like. You can just see it. As soon as you start telling a story, your brain is trained to want to know the ending, and so you're working with how God created the brain. 18:58 - Speaker 1 Yeah, and so you like lock back in and yeah. So when you jump from teaching young adults or youth and you jump to teaching adults, how do you shift your strategy? 19:12 - Speaker 2 Okay, this might be contrary to popular opinion. So I just listened to a podcast recently Don't ask me names because I actually don't remember the gal who was being interviewed, but she was talking on speaking and communicating and she's a professional speaker and she said something that I do that confirmed that. I didn't know if it was right. And she said I actually don't change content that much for adults to students. 19:41 I change how much I illustrate, and so I have found that the overall structure, if you go to a youth sermon that I speak and you go to a Sunday morning that I'm communicating, you're going to see the same structure there. But I think when you have a longer sermon my teaching blocks are longer, you know. So I know on a Sunday morning that, uh, you know, an adult listening to me can track with me for three to seven minutes before I give another illustration. In youth it has to be every three, you know, and so I a lot of my content is actually very similar, maybe like slight wording, but it's going to be it's it's going to be overall pretty similar. So I don't know what you think about that, but that's how I think through it. 20:28 - Speaker 1 Well, yeah, shoot, I mean kind of who cares what we think about it if people receive the gospel? And I've had an interesting interaction with my kids recently where we've been talking about different teaching you know, this person teaching, that person teaching and it's really struck me that when we come out of a service and they'll say, oh, that was really good. And then we say, oh well, why was it really good? And they say, well, I, you know, I could, I understood it, yeah, and it wasn't, it wasn't too much and it kept me moving, and that's a. That's a bit what you're talking about. 21:06 - Speaker 2 Yes. 21:07 - Speaker 1 So, so I love that. So again, for people who are listening who want like that nugget, then that would be it a little bit. Yeah, you know, keeping. I love the words you use and I'll use them. The commercial breaks Think of your commercial breaks, but they're not throwaway time. 21:22 - Speaker 2 No, they serve the point always, I think so. I mean, anybody can tell a story at any time, but it always has to communicate the point of the point, yep, so. 21:31 - Speaker 1 And that, I think, kind of buttresses in my mind. The next thing I'm going to ask you but keeping depth, or, I'm sorry, keeping attention without sacrificing depth, yeah. So any other thoughts on that, any other things you think of when I kind of say that? 21:51 - Speaker 2 No, I think sometimes it's. Maybe it's reinforcing something that I've said. But when I really do some, I really do think that when people say they don't have time for depth, they just try to just fire hose depth and theology and context and they're like, oh, they just can't handle it. But I think if you're thoughtful in how you lay out a argument from the scriptures, I think you would actually be surprised of how much students can take in. You just have to give them the commercial breaks necessary to reset their brain, right. 22:20 - Speaker 1 Yeah, and that kind of wiring you know you're coming up against. I love what you said about you're working with instead of fighting against. Yeah, so you're being honest about the fact that we are wired up this way and you can be mad about it, you can have a little hissy fit about it. You can do whatever it is you're going to do. 22:39 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 22:39 - Speaker 1 But this is how it is. 22:40 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 22:41 - Speaker 1 So you need to work with it. 22:44 - Speaker 2 Yes. 22:44 - Speaker 1 But again, now we're talking about you. You still need to connect, you still need to have depth, you still need to I mean, I don't this is a whole nother conversation but, like, what's the purpose and role of a pastor in a young person's life? You still need to communicate those truths that a young man or woman needs to hear. So you have all these. You know you're living in this reality. Yeah, so much of the reality we live in is about consumption. Yeah, right, it's like a never ending, a never satisfied ability to consume information, and I want to contrast that without like embodying and living faith. So, just again, voraciously consuming content for the sake of I don't know versus kind of transferring that into an actual living faith. 23:38 So, I want to hear from you. You know how you think about that. We've touched on some of it, but again, let's dive into this kind of concept. 23:45 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I and a lot of the things that I feel like you talk about these big categories and when, like you, actually are trying to implement things. They're very subtle things that you do in ministry that you're trying to lean into. But I mean, yeah, I mean consumption of content is the name of the game right now. Like I, even in myself as a pastor, I just sometimes I just read books and read books and read books and I'm like to what end? Like am I just? Is this entertainment, information, or is this actual like transformation of my own life? 24:14 And you know, consumption is watching faith and embodiment is like a living and walking faith. Yeah, I feel like preaching to the mind is sometimes discipling, like an intellectual faith, and in my preaching in particular, some of the feedback that I've gotten is like I really do do try to like preach to the soul of the person, where you start getting at affections and that's your affections and like what's deep down inside of you, is like what the overflow of the heart is, the mouth and your life, and and so I think, where I'm aiming when I'm preaching really matters. 25:02 So I think preaching to the heart versus just like I'm going to give you theological truths, or even just like here's the three things that you need to learn from this passage, but like, I think taking the theology, the application, the scripture that you're unpacking that night and I think delivering it to the heart of the person is something that's extremely important in this next generation, especially if what I just talked about the previous generation was more of a mind generation, and this generation is more of an, an experience, authenticity and heart generation than to preach to the mind. Yep, it's. You're actually missing what the heartbeat of this generation is. So I think that's part of it. 25:42 Another thing that I do and this isn't new to me, but I make space after I preach for students to encounter the Holy Spirit, and so what that practically looks like is I could preach for 30 minutes on a youth night, but instead I teach for 25 and I leave five minutes to pray and give students a chance to pray to invite the Holy Spirit. So, just like, visually, we have a cross on our stage and this is what I do I preach and then I'm like all right, we're going to transition into our time of prayer and I joined them and I faced the cross with them and we all put our hands out together in a posture of receiving. Ask them to stand up. 26:32 So they're like even moving their body, get into a different mental space and we invite the Holy Spirit to come. And then I just lead guided prayer which is like this last week it was like Holy Spirit, what did you want me, what were you saying to me? Holy Spirit, what did like what part of my heart do I need to give over to you right now from what was just preached, from your word? And I always ultimately get to a point where it's like what was just preached from your word, and I always ultimately get to a point where it's like what are you calling me to do? And so sometimes I feel like as preachers, we try to apply God's word to them and like tell people what they should be doing. I think there's space for that, but I think, asking, teaching them to pray to the Holy Spirit, holy Spirit, how do you want me to obey out of this, if they feel like God's communicating that to them? Versus Cory, it's a completely different thing and I think affects how they show up in the world the days to come. So that's a really big deal to me and I've seen it work powerfully. And then sometimes it's just very mundane. You don't know what God is doing. But I've gotten a ton of positive feedback on that. 27:41 And then the last thing is like I think sometimes we want to have yeah, we want to have college students or youth like obey all the things out of the passage. I don't know how many sermons you've been a part of. You're like I really want to obey but I don't know how to. Out of that and I think we assume people know how to apply God's word to their life and I think people actually really want to obey but sometimes they actually don't know how. So you think Sermon on the Mount Jesus is very specific in some of his instructions on like how to obey or how to live out the kingdom, and so I always give my students, even on Sunday mornings. I was like here's one thing, one small, doable thing that you can do this week to embody God's word in your life this week. 28:28 And so I try to name something small doable that everybody could do and to get momentum towards obedience versus just like. All right, that was all my information. Now go talk about it intellectually more, if that makes sense. 28:40 - Speaker 1 So those are some three things that I do. I hope people are taking notes. Man, that's really, really good. Yeah, when you were talking, it made me think of have you ever heard people talk about like, what do you give to the person who already has everything? Yeah, like you can't give them a gift that they couldn't buy themselves. You have to gift and then move into an entirely different realm and give them something meaningful. And I actually think, when you're talking about this generation, that we're kind of talking about this same problem. What do you think you could intellectually give to these kids that they're not going to go? Get on Reels or Shorts or TikTok? Oh yeah, and I don't mean that like that is not a slight seminary or learning or learn all the history, learn all the context, learn all the things, but the reality is they're overloaded intellectually. 29:30 - Speaker 2 Yes, so absolutely. 29:32 - Speaker 1 So yeah, when you're talking to me, it makes me think, like you know, you're so right. You have to give them something meaningful. 29:38 - Speaker 2 And part of this I think you know. If you're just talking about like who can give the best content in the most charismatic way, I mean, everybody has their favorite preacher that they listen to. That's probably not their local church pastor. 29:52 It's just how it is, like in an age where the best of the best are known by everybody. Like your local church pastor probably isn't gonna be your favorite communicator you've ever heard, but that pastor way over in that different state or country, what they are not doing for you is praying for you as their local church pastor and giving you a word that's for you in their context. So I go in my sermon prep. I'm not just giving them content. I am like the pastor of the next generation at this specific church. So every time I communicate God's word to them, that means that God is giving me specifically a fresh and specific word for the next generation at this specific church, and so what I am giving them is, I would say, a special word for us as his special people at this specific place, and that's way bigger than just content. Yeah, if that makes sense. 30:53 - Speaker 1 So I think anybody listening who is a local pastor would totally understand what you're saying. Yeah, I think folks who may have never gotten to be in a powerful local context, or maybe been in that role, might think that you could get around this. Sure, I don't know that you can, because I completely agree with you. Yeah, one of the ways I think about it is as you're looking down, as you're preaching, you're catching the eyes of people and you know what's going on in their life. Yeah, because you just talked to them the night before, absolutely, or you visited them at the hospital, or you visited them at their house or whatever it was. 31:32 - Speaker 2 Or just like even right now in a particular group in the ministry, I've noticed like these same themes keep coming up. Right, it's this theme of discouragement for like five plus people, just when you start realizing they're all naming the same thing and then you're praying about that thing and God's giving you a word from the scriptures on that thing. There's something uniquely specific about that that. I think it's transformational for a specific local place and I just want to clarify I think God has given incredible pastors and communicators. I think he, God, has anointed specific people to have a word for the big church, you know, and there's that role. But I'm talking about a specific local church. Yes, yep, yep. 32:16 - Speaker 1 Yeah, a universal prophet versus a communal prophet. Yeah, absolutely yeah, a universal profit versus a communal profit. 32:20 - Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. 32:23 - Speaker 1 I want to ask you a specific question. So, in your experience, how do you move people from spectating to participating? 32:40 - Speaker 2 I would say I am convinced, more than ever in the last year or two, ownership, I think giving students ownership in the family, so to speak, ownership in the ministry, it changes everything. I've led a college ministry for years where I've done everything and guess what? People expect me to do everything and them to receive the thing that I'm giving to them. And we've talked about this before off uh, yeah, off conversation. And one of the things that's just so powerful about our youth community right now is I feel like many of them feel like this is their ministry as much as it is mine. 33:20 And when people feel like they're not just attending an event but they're part of a family and I actually have a spiritual gift and I have like Cory believes in me, he sees that I have giftings, and so one of the things that I try to do is like call out things that I see in other people that reflect Jesus. Cause when people go like oh, Cory said that about me and they want to actually live more into that because they're proud of it, and then also to call out gifting and like hey, you know, I have one of these guys was like I really think that God has gifted you with leadership and have you noticed like when you, when you step up and take charge, people follow you? Have you ever thought that God wants to use that for his kingdom? And so you're bringing into the next generation the imagination of like God actually wants to use me, not just my pastor and I think that culture spreads and so if you can get a group of people to have that and then I think it spreads throughout the ministry. 34:22 - Speaker 1 It's one of my favorite things of what you do, because I think about the young men and women who attend and, like you brought up earlier, sometimes these things are simple, little things, but something, for instance, of like imagine you're at school and you're trying to invite some people and you say, hey, do you want to come check out the youth group at my church? Or the kid says do you want to come to my youth group? Yes, that's so different. 34:50 - Speaker 2 It's way different, way different. Yeah, one of my favorite. I mean it's not just a, it's not a way of delegating, although it can be. I there was a gal in a college ministry this last year so many different ideas. She's like can we do this event, this event and this event? And I was like, yeah, how do you want to, how do you want me to help you do it? And what that turned into was this person having a level of ownership and a role in the ministry that legitimately changed the community and our whole ministry. What if I just said, yes, I'll do that, yes, I'll do that, yes, I'll do that, and it's, it's not good. No, it's not good. It's empowering and it's releasing, and I think that's. I mean, that's Jesus. I was reading Luke the other day sending out the 12th In Jesus' ministry. He's giving ownership to his disciples before he could have done it better than them, but he knew he needed to empower his disciples. And so I think that model matters in our ministries, however that looks like and however God leads. 35:55 - Speaker 1 And the last thing I want to ask you is, again, specifics. So how do you delegate in the ministry? What are the things? Worship, welcoming social media like? What is it? 36:21 - Speaker 2 time, but I used to be like I, anything that I can do, I will do, and now it's like anything that I don't have to do I don't want to do, not because I don't want to do it, but like I God has called me to pastor, shepherd, provide mentorship, to preach, and like I need to lean into those as much as I can. And then everything else I want to give away, and so that's uh social media. That is obviously like we have. We try to empower students to lead worship. I think it's uh welcome teams. I also think, um, we're like empowering students rather than us playing events. Have students playing events events? 36:58 - Speaker 1 playing events. 36:58 - Speaker 2 It's even on a small group leader level, trying to encourage leaders to give ownership to people in their small groups. Like, hey, one of our best groups, that's, I would say that, our most flourishing group the leaders don't lead, they lead students who lead the discussions and, I think, anywhere that you can pass off ownership. So it's like peer-to-peer ministry versus like leader community ministry. It just creates a culture of participation, not spectatorship. So I have to watch that a lot because I'm firstborn I'll just do everything myself and I can do a lot myself, but it's just never ultimately as good or as fruitful and doesn't won't work in ministry long-term. 37:43 So and when um tell me what year you really began thinking you needed to pastor in that way years ago I had a paid staff team that was big enough in college ministry where I didn't need to, and that team got thinned out to where it was just me and I realized, well, now I have to. So there was a forced have to. And then there was also, I would say, in the last year to two, like seeing what God has done in our youth ministry. And when I get underneath and ask all the questions to the pastor who previously led it, you realize it's all student ownership. I mean one of our students last year he was a senior and he felt like it was his ministry and he, it felt like he brought like all of his class to our youth, you know, because like it was his and, uh, so many people came to faith through that. And I just go like that's that's it, that's it, that's ownership, dope yeah, that's, and it cuts through the noise of social media. 38:59 I think is like does that make sense? 39:01 - Speaker 1 you're jumping on. That's where I want to get to. Okay, right, so dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, hit, hit, hit. I mean, yeah, literally brought up the social dilemma. Um, yeah, I think you were referencing a book, but then there's a movie. Um, these apps are literally designed to keep us in them. They're designed to reward us. They're designed to keep us in them. They're designed to reward us, they're designed to capture us, and I don't want to sugarcoat that. I mean, that's literally what it is. Yep, absolutely. So there's dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, but we are seeking discipleship, we're seeking depth. Yeah, so cutting through that, so you're identifying something. When a young man or woman begins to feel like this is my thing, that's a level of reward, or I don't want to say dopamine, because that's not it necessarily, but connection, which does release good feelings. But that's something more right. 39:54 - Speaker 2 Yeah Well, I just feel like I was reading or listening to something. It was just probably a year ago. I thought it was fascinating and they're like how do you cut through the noise of social media? And they're like peers texting peers. There's something about a text from a peer that cuts through. They'll get off the app and read it and if you just think about Zoom out and you get, you have a culture in your ministry of ownership and invitation and come be with me in your ministry of ownership and invitation and come be with me and this group of people, it spreads so fast, because I think what people are sitting on their phones looking for is connection, and if you can have a community of connection and ownership, there's a vitality and a life that cannot be replicated on a screen that you get from that. 40:37 And so I don't know, I feel like just one of the things that I'm seeing, obviously like when the students are, you know, at home or at school. Like you know, I still see students on their phones all the time, but there is something about like one maybe the two hours of the week that they are on their phone the least is when I have them on Sunday nights and a community of ownership and connection and relationship is going to break through a lot of that digital distraction and just sitting addicted all week, but it's powerful. 41:10 - Speaker 1 Yeah, did you first come to church through an invitation? 41:14 - Speaker 2 No. 41:15 - Speaker 1 Not first, because you grew up. 41:17 - Speaker 2 No, I grew up in the faith, but I was never part of youth ministry until now. So, my first season of being truly connected to a local church was college, and in some sense it was invitation at that point, because I was coming with two of my buddies who were going at the church here and they said I should be a part of the young adult ministry. And that's how it was, gotcha. 41:45 - Speaker 1 So I'm just bringing that up because you're familiar with the connective piece. It is for real. You know, if you want to cut through the dopamine and you want to get to the depth Anything else that you guys have found that does cut through the noise, the distraction, et cetera. How have you guys used retreat that does, um, cut through the noise, the distraction, etc. Um, how have you guys used retreats? How have you used games? How have you used nights out together, like what's your thinking or strategy with those things. 42:16 - Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean I I think providing an alternative space that they are consistently in, where they're getting the real thing, which I would say is embodied relationship, authentic gospel rooted preaching, and I think there's the Holy spirit is at work in that, but I think you know so there's the at the event, things like creating space, all the things that we've already talked about in this conversation, teaching styles, working with, not against, cultures of ownership and invitation. 42:52 But I think equipping students to digitally disconnect in rhythms throughout their week and daily is something that I'm always trying to implement, like if I'm. You know, some people are like, well, get off social media. It's like they're not going to get off social media. But what I can do is give them practices and rhythms where they are trying to set five minutes of their day, they put their phone down and they connect with God. And I've just found, you know, if students have an experience where they encounter God five minutes at home, like that's contagious Taste and see that the Lord is good and you'll crave more. And I do think we have to equip our students to digitally disconnect and that's really challenging, but I think it's worth laboring. 43:43 And so I'm like hey can you spend five to 15 minutes every day, like apart from your phone and with Jesus, just small rhythms every day, trying to equip our students and that way I think it's been really important. That's so good. 43:58 And just straight up talking about like giving whole nights to social media stuff. One of the things that we did this last year is we just we did like an all of life series for our college ministry. One of the topics was social media. So it's not just like trying to compete with social media, but like teaching them how to think about what this is Right, why it's dangerous, why it's good. Here, as a christian, how do we process that? What are your questions like? And just like naming all the things and, um, discipling them how how to think about it and shepherding them. 44:31 I think when people get the picture, they they understand more like oh okay, I see what's going on here and so it's not just telling them hey, put your phone away and read your bible for 15 minutes, but it's like, hey, have you ever thought about, like, how this is forming you, the person? Have you ever noticed how anxious you are? And did you know, like research is teaching that, like there's a direct correlation, like what if there's an alternative, like it's you're discipling the whole thing, um, and so it's working within no. 45:04 - Speaker 1 So yes, again, so good. So I want to ask you, kind of moving, switching gears a little bit in your, from your seat or from your perspective do you think there is truly something special going on in this generation right now? Oh my gosh, yes. 45:22 - Speaker 2 I mean, it's unbelievable. 45:25 - Speaker 1 What's unbelievable about it? 45:30 - Speaker 2 You know everybody, I don't know how many people are like well, maybe I do hear it People bag on the next generation all the time. You know, digitally addicted, they don't know how to have a relationship. Maybe I do hear it people bag on the next generation all the time. You know, digitally addicted, they don't know how to have a relationship. And I'm like I, those things are all like. I understand why people are saying all of those things. 45:50 God is radically moving in the hearts of this next generation and the level of spiritual hunger and appetite. You can't make somebody hungry. You can't tell somebody, hey, you should be hungry. It's like they're just hungry. 46:07 And I think underneath the distraction, I would say underneath the addiction, I think there's an ache and there is a desire for something that's real. When your whole life is like people's highlight reels online on social media, on TikTok, and then eventually, even if you're not consciously thinking about it, I think deep down underneath you go like I actually want something that's real, and so I think the spiritual hunger is high. I think the level of courage and risk is really high too, like I've seen, like students being willing to respond in services in a way that I haven't seen in the past. I taught this winter camp and the first night it was like first night we're not even like warmed up to the weekend yet and I just felt, led by the Holy Spirit, that that particular night night, students were going to confess and pray for each other in the moment and they they didn't, and students were weeping. 47:09 these are junior hires and their ability to just like be courageous, because I think, if it's real, they will give all of it, all of themselves, to it, and I think Jesus is revealing himself to the next generation that he's real and he wants to meet them in authentic way and it's really powerful to see. 47:29 I think, that in our specific ministry, you know there's always aches and pains and challenges and all of that stuff with any community. But there has been a history in the last handful of years of like our senior class starts very small and by the end it's massive because students are just bringing friends that don't know Jesus to this church thing and I think when they experience the Holy Spirit relationship, a place that in the church so normal to talk about hey, how was your week, what was your high, what was your low? But out in the world they don't have that anywhere. So very simple, mundane things to us are radically new and real to them and it's really powerful. So I think God is pouring out His Spirit in a fresh way. 48:22 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I really wanted to hear what you thought about that. You said something. You said you can't make someone be hungry, but it made me think about well, you can, you can starve them. 48:36 - Speaker 2 That's really good. 48:37 - Speaker 1 It made me think like, well, I don't know, I don't know how to say it, but I think the enemy thought he was doing a good thing by starving generations right Of authenticity, connection, relationship. But what a backfire. Because now they're finding it and I would agree with you, I think what I'm seeing? Movement. I love the word you use courage. There's courage, there's risk, the honor between one another, the authenticity, the genuine nature of it. It's beautiful. But what about this backfire of? I think he was hoping that everybody would starve to death. What happened instead was they got hungry enough that they went and found authentic. They found the authentic Christ, they found faith. 49:29 - Speaker 2 Yeah, you're not asking for this, but I'm going to give it to you. I'm more convinced of this. There was a defining moment in my preaching journey, which I'm still young in where I so I'm. It was this winter camp that I taught. I taught three messages and they were like I worked really hard on them, but there was nothing like that impressive about these messages in the sense of the presence of God and just like you just knew God was there and just I remember preaching even in one moment being like semi-disconnected from what I was saying. I was like this is not landing and also you just see, like this gal in front of me just start weeping and I realized there's. 50:13 But I prepared myself behind the scenes in a season in prayer for that community and there and the performance of my sermon was maybe not as great as it could have been, but the power behind it was different and I do think that we have had a history here in America where we have the best communicators, the best of everything, worship, church, and I think what we're seeing now it's dependence upon God and the Holy Spirit and the pastor preparing himself in private. We talked about all the different how-tos and things about illustrations. I think all those things matter, but I have seen a categorical difference in the fruit in my preaching, when I am prepared behind the scenes in private, not just writing my sermon, but like praying, and I think God is doing something with the church. That's dependent upon the Holy Spirit and I'm really passionate about it. 51:08 - Speaker 1 Oh man, I could get up and bench press you right now. 51:14 - Speaker 2 I mean technically, I can't Maybe, maybe, maybe as a spirit. 51:18 - Speaker 1 But, yes, you're so right and and getting to see that in you and and I know it's true, and I know that what you're saying is true and I think that if someone is listening, who has pastored and specifically been preaching for some time, I hope that they will take what you're saying to heart Because, again, it's hard to give a gift to someone who has everything, and so if we're spending hours and copious amounts of time trying to find the perfect intellectual nugget to give to a congregation, it's like maybe, yeah, maybe, but what they really need is they need you to be prayed up, yeah, Well, I heard a friend share a quote with me recently and the context was worship leading, but I think it applies to pastoring. 52:06 - Speaker 2 He's like are you more concerned about how you're performing or who they're becoming? And I think when you are concerned about how you're performing, you leave sermons like how did I do, you know, did it work? And it's like performative things. If you're truly like, your burden in your heart is who they're becoming, you prepare differently. You prepare prayerfully because you realize that I can't do anything apart from the holy spirit. Like Jesus actually meant it and I think you, um, you risk more in messages and like calling students to respond like nudges from the Holy Spirit. 52:41 Like I had a college ministry last night and I had a very short window to write my sermon and I was. I could not sleep the whole night and I just felt like God woke me up early and he's like I want you to do this at the service tonight. I wasn't planning to do it. I was like ah, and yeah. I was like okay, I'm more concerned about who they're becoming than like how I'm gonna like look tonight and I just, I really do feel like all these environments where you see like a spiritual birth of something new. 53:16 there's something about like I. I just feel like God asking me to do this, so I'm going to try it as risk being willing to look foolish, I'm like I'm not there fully but I'm like trying to lean in that direction of like, okay, like, who cares how you perform if there's no fruit in it and would you rather have a? 53:38 I don't think these are ads at odds. But like, be more prayed up in your sermon isn't as polished, but you're following the Holy Spirit's leading. They're becoming something special, right, whereas all of like how good of a speaker you are and is it working. It's a different mindset to pastoring. So one spirit, one's flesh. 53:57 - Speaker 1 Yes, yes, I was working on something pertaining to Isaiah 6, 8, you know, here am I, send me, and the thought came you know, God is not so worried about your ability, but he very much needs your availability. 54:15 Yes, and that's really what you're saying, yeah, which I love and, again, I hope people are taking to heart. So I know we're kind of moving towards the end. I feel like we keep talking about all kinds of things. I want to ask you, though and I'm you know, you're going to have to shoot from the hip, so if you need a little time to think, but you're the let's say, you're the enemy, you see what God's doing, you know what's doing. What's your plan to disrupt this whole thing? What are you going to try to do to these kids who are finding genuine faith and really connecting? What are you going to do? 54:54 How are you going to come at them? 55:00 - Speaker 2 So I'm going to start with leadership and then maybe get to students. I think he's going to prayerlessness from leadership. I do. I think there is the presence of God, like I. You're going to get me back to that all the time. The, the, the prayer is powerful. It's a sign of dependence, um, demonstration of the spirit's power for Corinthians. Uh, I, I think I think there's a uh. Leaders are realizing the power of dependence upon the Holy spirit. I think he's going to do everything to disrupt that. I think busyness. You're going to find yourself going to pray and your phone starts ringing. They're all going to be good things too. It's ridiculous. I will go to pray, I'll sit down and it's like phone call. And I've just started to realize that I actually think not all the time, but a lot of times. 55:56 I think there's the enemy in that. Yeah, I think with our students relationship. I think if we're pushing people to embodied relationship, I think he will want students to perform in front of each other rather than be authentically real. Like he'll try to create cultures that are built around coolness rather than authenticity, I think, as, like next gen leaders, like how is this cool? How's you know? 56:22 like what's it going to connect and I think when people feel like they need to be impressive at church, it's going to be the same thing that's reflected online. It's like you're showing up in the same posture at both places, right? So if we're going to gather, I think he's like going to try to disrupt authenticity no-transcript, and I think part of our discipleship might be where it's like teaching people how to live in community, which is a lot of Jesus' teachings anyway. But I think I think he's going to try to make fake community. It's like fake online, like giving people a down. It's a version of fake community. So I don't know. That's a thought I Like. It's a version of fake community, so I don't know. That's a thought. I'm sure there's a lot more to it. 57:23 - Speaker 1 Yeah, I was just curious what you thought. I didn't prep you for that question. 57:26 - Speaker 2 So that's my fault? No, that's fine. 57:29 - Speaker 1 But I think it's worth thinking about. What did I miss? What did we miss? Anything that you want to share specifically? 57:36 - Speaker 2 No, I think there's so much talk about social media, it's like bad, bad, bad, bad and we're seeing all the bad fruit of it. 57:51 I think there's a ton of upside. I think part of innovating and pastoring the future is not just teaching people how to get off of social media and Sabbath and have rhythms of separation, but I also think we need to think about how to use it and incarnate into that world to reach the next generation. So if you're pastoring next gen ministries and say your whole mentality is like how to get everybody off and not use it and just like I, I don't know. I think teaching them how to engage with it well, and I teach them how to be missional something with this next generation I mean the ability for the gospel to go forth digitally is ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. God is using it and I think God is going to use it, and I think we need to innovate in our technology to reach this next generation and disciple them how to think about it and to abstain from it. So I think it's going to be the tension of all of those things. 58:46 - Speaker 1 Um, well, I want to bring back up. You know, we, we. I dropped, you know, Charlie Kirk's name earlier, but that entire ministry, the online presence, um, Stuart Connecty is that my saying his name, right? But another guy who's online going to campuses and they're doing videos of all of it, yeah, and they're letting people see the answers. 59:05 - Speaker 2 Yeah. 59:05 - Speaker 1 So they're not. You know, as far as I know, they're not editing that down, they're just giving you the raw version of it. So, to your point, that's an unbelievable way that that is moving. And I had the same experience you brought up, which was, you know, my kids and my kids' friends were devastated a month ago when Kirk was assassinated. So it's like, and I'm thinking, how do you know this guy, like, how has he impacted all these people? Well, it was through the phones. So it is very powerful the phones. 59:44 - Speaker 2 Yeah, so that's so. It is very powerful. Yeah, I think doing like, uh, yeah, using social media in digital platforms authentically right if you're just trying to like be impressive and cool and show how cool everything is. 59:50 - Speaker 1 It's like I don't know that that's played out on some level, right like that's being played out yeah and what. 59:58 - Speaker 2 What they're responding to is is more authentic um get someone opening up their lives and sharing their lives online, or you know, being authentic, being real yeah, I don't like when you're trying to like show the world that your ministry is cooler than it actually is, like there's something like people will recognize the gap between that. 01:00:19 You know, I don't think it's necessarily a trend right now, but like unpolished, uncut Right, like pictures of your ministry and like capturing the actual ministry that you're a part of and advertising the beauty of what is I think is really important and I think I think we, we have to innovate digitally and empower the next generation. 01:00:42 Like I don't know, like I'm 29 and I'm already old and out of date, but having 19 years around me that know that world, that can use it for good, I think, so empowering already in the next generation, even if you're in your 20s, 20s. But I also think, like what I, what I can do, is like foster healthy, embodied community where we can honor and we can also be honest. And I went to a church recently and they talk about rhythms of they do like honor time and then honesty time. So it's like in community, it's like they're always honoring one another, calling out Christ in each other, and it's this culture of like, honor and celebration that Romans 12. And also it's a, it's a safe place to like not be put together, and there's always honesty and confession of sin regularly. 01:01:33 And I think those are two healthy ingredients to community that I am, yeah, trying to innovate in. 01:01:40 - Speaker 1 Have you thought about implementing that in the youth service? Like their time of honor. 01:01:44 - Speaker 2 Their youth guy said that in every small group they do honor time and they like honor one another from junior high up to high school and then at the end they all go in a circle and they're honest and they call it walking in the light and they confess sin and you don't have to, but every week there's like there's the opportunity and what it creates is a culture of this is safe and real and authentic. 01:02:08 All the things that this next generation longs for, and I think we naturally like do those things as pastors, but being more mindful of having like regular rhythms, of like me being open and honest and sharing my weakness and honoring people in my ministry, like people want to be part of stuff like that, and so I think we can. We have to foster really healthy community and stick with each other when it's hard and messy. Yeah, all the stuff, yep anything else that we missed? 01:02:36 no, I just. I just think I was thinking a lot about this. There's a lot about methods, social media, how to preach all the stuff structures, systems. Yeah, we're all asking those questions. I also like I'm reading this church history book called Resilient Faith by Gerald Stitzer and he talks about like why the early church was resilient and he describes like a early church service, like what they've always done, and I was reading it and I was like it's the same thing we do. 01:03:11 It looks slightly different, but like there are age old things we gather, we sing, we have community, we preach, we do the one another's, we take the Lord's Supper together, and the church has always done that, and I think there's things that we have to innovate, to reach and all that stuff. But I'm like, oh, there's also like doing the same things, like keeping your eyes on Jesus, getting on your knees, seeking him, trying your best, and I think when we're dependent, rather than just like really smart and all this stuff, I think dependence will be the key of what has fruit in the future and what doesn't. And so I want us to be innovative and I'm trying all sorts of different things in youth right now, but I also want us to do the same old things and just keep being faithful, and I think we will see fruit in it. 01:04:02 - Speaker 1 Yes, things and just keep being faithful and I think, I think we will see fruit in it. Yes, yeah, it made me, made me think of uh, what, like you could gain the whole world and lose your soul, like you could have all the right methods and all the right, you know just the right amount of smoke and the right amount of lighting, and the right amount of this and the other thing. And yeah, but if you, if you miss, if you miss the opportunity to connect with them what does it matter? 01:04:19 - Speaker 2 Yeah, Simple, authentic, Jesus-focused, what fits with your culture and just pray like crazy. I don't want to oversimplify it, but those are key ingredients. 01:04:32 - Speaker 1 That was my last question for you. Any ending thoughts or ending benediction? You might have just said it already. 01:04:38 - Speaker 2 No, I would just say make it all about Jesus. 01:04:40 I think, we really like Jesus does, honor things that aren't about him and I think, truly seeking God's glory and making like if it's not about Jesus, just drop it. Like like there's so much things we do, like be very, very Jesus centric, talk about him, there's okay. I'll end here. Romans 12. This has been on my heart, or so much, not Romans 12. I think it's John 12. 01:05:03 Jesus says when the son of man is lifted up, he will draw all men to himself. When you lift Jesus, hearts are drawn and I think, like in our communities it is, let's just be honest, elevating our youth ministry brand. We're elevating our preaching, we try to elevate ourselves and I think when the pastor's heart and the culture of the community is like we, truly the prayer of our heart is we want Jesus to his reputation to increase and truly I want mine to decrease. I think God blesses that heart in that community and I just think everything being truly sincerely about Jesus in the heart and leader of the community I think is contagious and people know because they want authenticity and they can sense when it's fake. 01:05:51 - Speaker 1 Yeah, snaps all around my guy. 01:05:53 - Speaker 2 Yeah Sounds good. 01:05:55 - Speaker 1 Thanks a ton for being with us. I guess if you're ever visiting the Gilbert area and you want to check out the ministry here, you can see Cory and stop in and see what's going on. It'd be amazing. Sounds great. Thanks for being here and for taking the time. Yeah, absolutely All right, brother, see ya, see you later. Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with another pastor or ministry leader who you think might benefit from this conversation. And if you're looking for more tools and resources to help you preach and lead with confidence, be sure to check out sermoncentral.com/podcast. Sermon Central is the largest online resource hub for pastors and ministry leaders. From illustrations to outlines to media, you'll find everything you need to preach and lead effectively. So check out sermoncentral.com/podcast, where you'll even find a special podcast listener discount on our membership pricing. Check it out and stay tuned for our next episode.